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Outrider Patrol nerf

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TanithScout
Posts: 48

Outrider Patrol nerf

Post#1 » Sun Aug 19, 2018 6:31 pm

SW's do not need love but it's not as if we are in a good place compared to others.

In fact, Outrider Patrol was a unique ability in that it gave SW some great finisher potential and AoE burst, reducing range to 30ft is useless, you might as well go for M3 stagger every singe time. I have only ever used Lilieaths Forgiveness, Outrider Patrol, and Stagger, so yeh maybe I'm bias but now what do we do for M2? We are a ranged DPS class with no ranged DPS NUKE.

SH got same treatment but they are much more suited to CQB, so this makes sense for them and not for SW. I am fine with a class developing over time but right now I cannot see the vision for this change, other than to stop me going on a tear focussing annoying Destro players down and finishing them off. If this was why it got a HUGE nerf, then reduce the damage to 800.

-Qonrad
Qonrad, the knave of Nagarythe, Ghost of the Garior.

Imperial, Myrmidia's Chosen

Live: Karak Azgal Guild: Radiant Knights/They Took Our Jobs Char: Neomir/HCTBoom/Jinnz

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Darks63
Posts: 542

Re: Outrider Patrol nerf

Post#2 » Mon Aug 20, 2018 12:36 pm

I have too agree the range is so dangerously short that the stagger would be better since you could at least get clear after dropping it.
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lefze
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Re: Outrider Patrol nerf

Post#3 » Mon Aug 20, 2018 12:51 pm

Seeing as it's a groundtargeted morale with a pretty small area of effect I'm inclined to agree, but I suspect future tweaks will reduce the range of all AoE morales meaning the change will turn out as perfectly fine. A proposal to give SW a singletarget morale to make up for this could be made, 30ft on an AoE morale is perfectly fine for warband play as you are stuck with Expert Skirmisher bombing anyways.
Rip Phalanx

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Aurandilaz
Posts: 1819

Re: Outrider Patrol nerf

Post#4 » Mon Aug 20, 2018 12:56 pm

Question could also be, why would SW deserve a special ranged 100 feet M2 morale bomb, when other classes with M2 instant dmg bombs have to be close to frontlines to use theirs?
30 feet is still quite generous, could be like BW that is 30 feet around the BW itself (that is after all a ranged dps class as well).
could also be changed to be like other M2 for ranged classes like Sorc or Engi, that is no M2 morale dmg at all ;)

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TanithScout
Posts: 48

Re: Outrider Patrol nerf

Post#5 » Mon Aug 20, 2018 6:36 pm

Aurandilaz wrote:
Mon Aug 20, 2018 12:56 pm
Question could also be, why would SW deserve a special ranged 100 feet M2 morale bomb, when other classes with M2 instant dmg bombs have to be close to frontlines to use theirs?
30 feet is still quite generous, could be like BW that is 30 feet around the BW itself (that is after all a ranged dps class as well).
could also be changed to be like other M2 for ranged classes like Sorc or Engi, that is no M2 morale dmg at all ;)
Because it's characteristic of the class. SW is a support dps, and Outrider Patrol supports DPS with an aoe finisher at max range. Engi is a support utility class. Their morale is supportive of this theme. BW has ranged nukes at M1 and M3 (afaik maining a BW on Live) so I'm not sure what you mean there but R&D is legendary and again suits their role well. BW's in BW GENERALLY (not always, I know) get close and do massive aoe damage. R&D suits this, even FM Fiery Blast spam supports this. If you want to get rid of class themes thats fine, as I said in my OP I'm open to change. Just wanted a discussion and who better than the man who implemented the change. Oh wait, theres no discussion, you just threw more questions at me. Cool move.

Also, I could be wrong since I only mained a BW in live not here, but BW had a ranged 12k dmg morale at M3, extremely easy to reach now, so they have a ranged nuke?
Also I could be wrong but balancing around 'what other people have at M2' is terrible, in my opinion, but I'm not a dev so I wouldn't know,. I think it's bad because I'd look at what the class has, is, and does rather than making m3 for rdps utterly generic. I'm such a silly goose, I'll get my coat.
Also I could be wrong but why are you referencing specific other classes especially Sorc which has nothing to do with this? Sounds like somones butthurt over not having R&D to me.

But thanks for answering ...!
Qonrad, the knave of Nagarythe, Ghost of the Garior.

Imperial, Myrmidia's Chosen

Live: Karak Azgal Guild: Radiant Knights/They Took Our Jobs Char: Neomir/HCTBoom/Jinnz

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Sigimund
Posts: 658

Re: Outrider Patrol nerf

Post#6 » Mon Aug 20, 2018 6:52 pm

How many DPS classes does Order actually have if SW and Engi are support?

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Aurandilaz
Posts: 1819

Re: Outrider Patrol nerf

Post#7 » Mon Aug 20, 2018 8:44 pm

TanithScout wrote:
Mon Aug 20, 2018 6:36 pm
Aurandilaz wrote:
Mon Aug 20, 2018 12:56 pm
Question could also be, why would SW deserve a special ranged 100 feet M2 morale bomb, when other classes with M2 instant dmg bombs have to be close to frontlines to use theirs?
30 feet is still quite generous, could be like BW that is 30 feet around the BW itself (that is after all a ranged dps class as well).
could also be changed to be like other M2 for ranged classes like Sorc or Engi, that is no M2 morale dmg at all ;)
Because it's characteristic of the class. SW is a support dps, and Outrider Patrol supports DPS with an aoe finisher at max range. Engi is a support utility class. Their morale is supportive of this theme. BW has ranged nukes at M1 and M3 (afaik maining a BW on Live) so I'm not sure what you mean there but R&D is legendary and again suits their role well. BW's in BW GENERALLY (not always, I know) get close and do massive aoe damage. R&D suits this, even FM Fiery Blast spam supports this. If you want to get rid of class themes thats fine, as I said in my OP I'm open to change. Just wanted a discussion and who better than the man who implemented the change. Oh wait, theres no discussion, you just threw more questions at me. Cool move.

Also, I could be wrong since I only mained a BW in live not here, but BW had a ranged 12k dmg morale at M3, extremely easy to reach now, so they have a ranged nuke?
Also I could be wrong but balancing around 'what other people have at M2' is terrible, in my opinion, but I'm not a dev so I wouldn't know,. I think it's bad because I'd look at what the class has, is, and does rather than making m3 for rdps utterly generic. I'm such a silly goose, I'll get my coat.
Also I could be wrong but why are you referencing specific other classes especially Sorc which has nothing to do with this? Sounds like somones butthurt over not having R&D to me.

But thanks for answering ...!
I'd make the argument that M2 1200 AoE bomb is not exactly a "ranged finisher", but rather just another M2 AoE morale bomb.
BW does it at close range, SH-Magus-SW at 30 feet, WL-Mara-WE-WH at frontline aiming frontal cones, the other 2 dps classes - Sorc/Engi don't get the M2 bomb but are "utility buffers" in that area. (SL + Choppa even poorer in the M2 section)
M2 AoE bombs are generally used for warband and orvr purposes, so I don't think that the argument "I was using it as a ranged finisher" is the best point when criticizing your M2 bomb behaving pretty much just like other M2 aoe bombs. M2 drops are pretty much standard bread and butter for warband morale use, and there dps classes generally are guarded, so being within 30 feet of target is not unreasonable, BW meanwhile has to get all the way to the enemy and then drop their M2 while at the same time working hard on blowing themselves up.
Apart from roleplay/lore arguments "I am a High Elf and therefore superior over other lesser morale users", don't understand why SW should get special treatment in the M2 bomb morale department.

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TanithScout
Posts: 48

Re: Outrider Patrol nerf

Post#8 » Tue Aug 21, 2018 5:31 pm

Azazareal was right... it IS the feared legendary Morale every single Destro knows and fears that wipes WB's. His words not mine at the end there.

Thanks for explaining yourself. Obviously (or clearly not so obviously) I believe in diversification rather than homogenization. I am, however, not a games designer. I can see how it would be too difficult to get around.
Qonrad, the knave of Nagarythe, Ghost of the Garior.

Imperial, Myrmidia's Chosen

Live: Karak Azgal Guild: Radiant Knights/They Took Our Jobs Char: Neomir/HCTBoom/Jinnz

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lefze
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Posts: 863

Re: Outrider Patrol nerf

Post#9 » Tue Aug 21, 2018 6:04 pm

Aurandilaz wrote:
Mon Aug 20, 2018 8:44 pm
TanithScout wrote:
Mon Aug 20, 2018 6:36 pm
Aurandilaz wrote:
Mon Aug 20, 2018 12:56 pm
Question could also be, why would SW deserve a special ranged 100 feet M2 morale bomb, when other classes with M2 instant dmg bombs have to be close to frontlines to use theirs?
30 feet is still quite generous, could be like BW that is 30 feet around the BW itself (that is after all a ranged dps class as well).
could also be changed to be like other M2 for ranged classes like Sorc or Engi, that is no M2 morale dmg at all ;)
Because it's characteristic of the class. SW is a support dps, and Outrider Patrol supports DPS with an aoe finisher at max range. Engi is a support utility class. Their morale is supportive of this theme. BW has ranged nukes at M1 and M3 (afaik maining a BW on Live) so I'm not sure what you mean there but R&D is legendary and again suits their role well. BW's in BW GENERALLY (not always, I know) get close and do massive aoe damage. R&D suits this, even FM Fiery Blast spam supports this. If you want to get rid of class themes thats fine, as I said in my OP I'm open to change. Just wanted a discussion and who better than the man who implemented the change. Oh wait, theres no discussion, you just threw more questions at me. Cool move.

Also, I could be wrong since I only mained a BW in live not here, but BW had a ranged 12k dmg morale at M3, extremely easy to reach now, so they have a ranged nuke?
Also I could be wrong but balancing around 'what other people have at M2' is terrible, in my opinion, but I'm not a dev so I wouldn't know,. I think it's bad because I'd look at what the class has, is, and does rather than making m3 for rdps utterly generic. I'm such a silly goose, I'll get my coat.
Also I could be wrong but why are you referencing specific other classes especially Sorc which has nothing to do with this? Sounds like somones butthurt over not having R&D to me.

But thanks for answering ...!
I'd make the argument that M2 1200 AoE bomb is not exactly a "ranged finisher", but rather just another M2 AoE morale bomb.
BW does it at close range, SH-Magus-SW at 30 feet, WL-Mara-WE-WH at frontline aiming frontal cones, the other 2 dps classes - Sorc/Engi don't get the M2 bomb but are "utility buffers" in that area. (SL + Choppa even poorer in the M2 section)
M2 AoE bombs are generally used for warband and orvr purposes, so I don't think that the argument "I was using it as a ranged finisher" is the best point when criticizing your M2 bomb behaving pretty much just like other M2 aoe bombs. M2 drops are pretty much standard bread and butter for warband morale use, and there dps classes generally are guarded, so being within 30 feet of target is not unreasonable, BW meanwhile has to get all the way to the enemy and then drop their M2 while at the same time working hard on blowing themselves up.
Apart from roleplay/lore arguments "I am a High Elf and therefore superior over other lesser morale users", don't understand why SW should get special treatment in the M2 bomb morale department.
You are completely missing the whole point of the morale having more than one use. While sure, it could be used to participate in a moraledump as it is indeed AoE, it ALSO(!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!) had a use as a singletarget morale, as it had range. Same goes for a plethora of other morales. But I agree no class should really get special treatment in the morale department unless the overall balance calls for it, which was previously the case (It still is, but good **** luck deciphering the current state of balance after the last patch). So while I personally take FM over patrol any day, as I said previously the change opens up for a proposal to grant SW a replacement ST morale.
Rip Phalanx

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Aurandilaz
Posts: 1819

Re: Outrider Patrol nerf

Post#10 » Tue Aug 21, 2018 9:55 pm

lefze wrote:
Tue Aug 21, 2018 6:04 pm

You are completely missing the whole point of the morale having more than one use. While sure, it could be used to participate in a moraledump as it is indeed AoE, it ALSO(!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!) had a use as a singletarget morale, as it had range. Same goes for a plethora of other morales. But I agree no class should really get special treatment in the morale department unless the overall balance calls for it, which was previously the case (It still is, but good **** luck deciphering the current state of balance after the last patch). So while I personally take FM over patrol any day, as I said previously the change opens up for a proposal to grant SW a replacement ST morale.
Now the DPS classes with M2 bombs are equal, that is one way to understand how "balance" works out.
If you want to now make proposal that SW (with already very good ranged arsenal) should get some kind of high dmg dealing ranged nuke morale finisher akin to Engi M3, go for it - engi pays for it by lacking a M2 aoe dmg morale.
Other solution could also be to simply nerf OP as M2 and make it just ST but return it to 100 feet, in case SWs feel like they do not want to be equal in access to M2 bomb morales alongside other dps classes.
Or as someone pointed above about "SW being support", maybe they could have OP replaced with Engi -20% dmg reduction morale so they can be a proper support class. ;)

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