Mighty Soul Removed?!

[Alucard2010]

My suggested changes to the knight start with:

1. Original Runefang back as a baseline tactic
2. MS as a speccable tactic in the glory tree (can even put it where Runefang currently is)
3. Base damage on MF goes up slightly, then the channel can either increase in damage per hit or increase chance to crit per hit. A well placed interrupt provides outplay for the enemy team.
4. SI should do more damage for a 13 point ability.

Agree with all these and every point made is 100% valid from both Uchoo and Atrosity.

[Fey]

Original Runefang buffed what, 720 stat? Ridiculously OP on a tactic, especially for what is still arguably the best tank in the game. Original Runefang is as cancerous as spammable pounce.

Knight damage is crap, yup everyone knows, doesn't matter. You buff the damage and you'd better kneecap the utility. This is almost as sad as the IB whine threads.

[detrap]

Just stop lol. EVERYTHING you say is wrong. The only thing you have proven wrong is yourself. Everything you post is anecdotal, a logical fallacy or a flat-out lie. Btw, you realize that admitting that you never used MS even further destroys the credibility which you never had, right? You're just a troll.

Anyway, I was hoping to get more feedback from the community but seeing as it's just Detrap left in here, time to talk to staff.

If it makes things easier for you, for the record I meant to say never used in the past few weeks alongside Heaven's Fury*

Tried and tested both and it's not helping a good warband running those over something more useful.

Please use words you understand, because the word anecdotal is not one of them. And yes I've given enough information already as a sufficient counter argument to your personal claims of the situation of the class.

Maybe main a knight instead of Destro classes and it might open your perception of what it can and can't do.

You only ever talk about all the abilities a class might have. Who runs M1 bubble or M2 EC outside of solo roaming? Being a STR stacking MS build knight used to provide an adequate amount of damage to even out the playing field in disparity of damage between tanks. The 15% extra damage you take was negated by the fact that you will be running FM for the majority of the time. Let alone the fact that you actually needed to slave away to get high enough gear to utilize MS in the first place.

We are not talking about being a stat ***** with EC which only lasts 15 seconds. If you pop EC and then get punted away, what benefit have you provided to anyone? None. Stacking WS does not create some godtier DPS boost to the knight since MF is a mess right now and PS already ignores 25% of a target's armor.

Also, GYR only buffs the dot on BB and the pitiful damage HF gives. We don't have any other meaningful way to boost our damage outside of M1 Demo....

Biting blade is easily replaced by slice through. Most 2H knights, I'd argue, will be running FM, BD, and OS. So with your one variable tactic you are going to run BB? Slice through will provide far greater utility to your team surviving and or catching targets.

The knight does dumpster damage compared to all other tanks. The utility the knight provides does not make up for the lack of damage. There is hardly any unique utility a knight provides to a group that other tanks do not. It's an easy formula to write out.

X = damage
Y = Utility
Z = Usefulness

X + Y = Z

If X is ****, does Y provide enough to offset and make sure our Z is on par with other tanks? That is what this thread is about. With MS you were able to make up the lack of damage to be a tank that did adequate damage with utility that isn't far superior to that of other tanks.

If you claim a knight's damage is fine. You're wrong. Even in BiS DPS gear the knight's damage is well below that of all the other tanks in their BiS DPS setup.

Also, who interrupts a healer 4 times in a row? You can taunt, knockdown, then vicious slash when they get up. If you're punting them towards the group then you are doing a knockdown + punt play, where they are punted during the knockdown. Who cares about this magical 4 interrupt capability? It's a complete non-issue.

My suggested changes to the knight start with:

1. Original Runefang back as a baseline tactic
2. MS as a speccable tactic in the glory tree (can even put it where Runefang currently is)
3. Base damage on MF goes up slightly, then the channel can either increase in damage per hit or increase chance to crit per hit. A well placed interrupt provides outplay for the enemy team.
4. SI should do more damage for a 13 point ability.

If the knight were to run both MS and RF then they are giving up their utility tactics in order to be more damage focused. So the Y variable of the equation is going down to offset the X going up. That is a compromise that the individual player must make for the sake of their play style or what the group needs.

If this suddenly provides too high of a DPS ceiling then the devs can look at reducing the tactics as they see fit.

You only ever talk about all the abilities a class might have. Who runs M1 bubble or M2 EC outside of solo roaming? Being a STR stacking MS build knight used to provide an adequate amount of damage to even out the playing field in disparity of damage between tanks. The 15% extra damage you take was negated by the fact that you will be running FM for the majority of the time. Let alone the fact that you actually needed to slave away to get high enough gear to utilize MS in the first place.

Not might have...already has. I often switch between having m1 bubble/m2 EC and DS/DB, depending on the warband makeup for ORvR. Having soft cap strength wounds and toughness is a big help for applying debuffs while face tanking warbands. I also explained how helpful the m1 is when combined with vigilance.

Stack weapon skill as well as strength if you want to 'dps' I already post screenshots of the differences and benefits.

You don't need to slave away to utilize MS, I was critical hitting healers for over 1k with MS without sov/invader/sentinel/oppressor/bloodlord.

I now have high strength and weapon skill and I'm only in 3 piece warlord with Dom and Beastlord.

We are not talking about being a stat ***** with EC which only lasts 15 seconds. If you pop EC and then get punted away, what benefit have you provided to anyone? None. Stacking WS does not create some godtier DPS boost to the knight since MF is a mess right now and PS already ignores 25% of a target's armor.

Same could be said for applying guard and getting punted away, you still use guard right?

You can easily use morales when you have immunities. Good warbands will push when immunities are up.

Again, if stacking weapon skill and strength means you will hit your targets for 100+ more damage, your critical hits always scale accordingly. I posted screenshots of myself hitting a 2h tank. The more armor a target has the better the armor penetration % from weapon skill and PS.

Also, GYR only buffs the dot on BB and the pitiful damage HF gives. We don't have any other meaningful way to boost our damage outside of M1 Demo....

GYR will buff BB, HW, SotS, SB and enables the following classes to do more damage:

SM
AM
ENG
BW
SW
WL
RP
WP
WH

See a pattern here? The damage is lackluster in comparison to other dps tanks because the warband will compensate greatly and make up for the Knight's ceiling of burst dps.

Biting blade is easily replaced by slice through. Most 2H knights, I'd argue, will be running FM, BD, and OS. So with your one variable tactic you are going to run BB? Slice through will provide far greater utility to your team surviving and or catching targets.

I run with BB if in single target party where Slice Through is not generally needed, also when the warband has enough IB's, SW and AMs for the aoe snares. Can still apply the debuff when using Arcing Swing on the the melee train. The extra dot damage is a little helpful as well.

You would change tactics accordingly to the warband makeup but apparently some players in this thread think that's impossible.

The knight does dumpster damage compared to all other tanks. The utility the knight provides does not make up for the lack of damage. There is hardly any unique utility a knight provides to a group that other tanks do not. It's an easy formula to write out.

X = damage
Y = Utility
Z = Usefulness

X + Y = Z

If X is ****, does Y provide enough to offset and make sure our Z is on par with other tanks? That is what this thread is about. With MS you were able to make up the lack of damage to be a tank that did adequate damage with utility that isn't far superior to that of other tanks.

Again...The warband the Knight is in compensates greatly for the lack of burst the knight brings after Arcing Swing is applied...How many other order tanks can instantly remove 1200hp every 10 seconds?

If the Knight's damage is buffed even remotely close to the other order tanks, it's breaking the game.

Knights are the best and most accessible tanks for utility. I've explained it already and I've spent enough time on all three classes to know this.

Again...The warband the knight is in compensates greatly for the lack of burst the knight brings after Arcing Swing is applied

If you claim a knight's damage is fine. You're wrong. Even in BiS DPS gear the knight's damage is well below that of all the other tanks in their BiS DPS setup.

This game isn't about 1v1v1. I've explained it already. In BiS will still be critting light armour targets for 1k or more. Not enough damage?

Also, who interrupts a healer 4 times in a row? You can taunt, knockdown, then vicious slash when they get up. If you're punting them towards the group then you are doing a knockdown + punt play, where they are punted during the knockdown. Who cares about this magical 4 interrupt capability? It's a complete non-issue.

No it's not a non-issue. The question is how many other tanks only have up to 2 without punt. The issue was raised about the Knights inability to kill healers, in this case a DoK. Try running with an assist train on a DoK trying to AoE heal and use your 3 interrupts with a setback aura. If you are not being assisted, the punt can be used as a 4th interrupt and ensures no channelled heals are done for a short period of time.

It is easier interrupting a healer to death in an assist train than it is trying to get the killing blow yourself. It also puts enormous pressure on the party the healer is trying to AoE heal.

My suggested changes to the knight start with:

4. SI should do more damage for a 13 point ability.

Let's leave the baseline fluff damage the same, it's not primarily used for the damage. But lower the cooldown to coincide with the wounds debuff duration on Arcing Swing/Overpowered Swing. I guess even though warbands will benefit greatly from this it won't satisfy the players still clinging to MS.

If the knight were to run both MS and RF then they are giving up their utility tactics in order to be more damage focused. So the Y variable of the equation is going down to offset the X going up. That is a compromise that the individual player must make for the sake of their play style or what the group needs.

If this suddenly provides too high of a DPS ceiling then the devs can look at reducing the tactics as they see fit.

It will go back to square one if Knights are doing too much damage than they should be, and make players stop playing the roles they should be focusing on as a Knight class. It creates bad behaviour again. Giving back these tactics to the Knights and Chosens will not solve anything unless they or other abilities are modified.

[Battlefield]

i have 1 question... Kotbs needs more Weapon skill stat than

Chosen cause Blazing blade does less damage and it can be easy

cleansable than Ravage besides Chosen has Relentless spirit

damage ability also so it means Kotbs is more phisical damage

class but you NERFED RUNEFANG TOTTALY now it gives Toughness

instead of Strength and Weapon skill but Chosen has analog

tactic that you added is Deamonclaw with Strength and Weapon skill ????

After all changes you did i do not want to play as Kotbs at all

cause Chosen became is much more better now !

[Atrosity]

If it makes things easier for you, for the record I meant to say never used in the past few weeks alongside Heaven's Fury*

Tried and tested both and it's not helping a good warband running those over something more useful.

Please use words you understand, because the word anecdotal is not one of them. And yes I've given enough information already as a sufficient counter argument to your personal claims of the situation of the class.

Maybe main a knight instead of Destro classes and it might open your perception of what it can and can't do.

You only ever talk about all the abilities a class might have. Who runs M1 bubble or M2 EC outside of solo roaming? Being a STR stacking MS build knight used to provide an adequate amount of damage to even out the playing field in disparity of damage between tanks. The 15% extra damage you take was negated by the fact that you will be running FM for the majority of the time. Let alone the fact that you actually needed to slave away to get high enough gear to utilize MS in the first place.

We are not talking about being a stat ***** with EC which only lasts 15 seconds. If you pop EC and then get punted away, what benefit have you provided to anyone? None. Stacking WS does not create some godtier DPS boost to the knight since MF is a mess right now and PS already ignores 25% of a target's armor.

Also, GYR only buffs the dot on BB and the pitiful damage HF gives. We don't have any other meaningful way to boost our damage outside of M1 Demo....

Biting blade is easily replaced by slice through. Most 2H knights, I'd argue, will be running FM, BD, and OS. So with your one variable tactic you are going to run BB? Slice through will provide far greater utility to your team surviving and or catching targets.

The knight does dumpster damage compared to all other tanks. The utility the knight provides does not make up for the lack of damage. There is hardly any unique utility a knight provides to a group that other tanks do not. It's an easy formula to write out.

X = damage
Y = Utility
Z = Usefulness

X + Y = Z

If X is ****, does Y provide enough to offset and make sure our Z is on par with other tanks? That is what this thread is about. With MS you were able to make up the lack of damage to be a tank that did adequate damage with utility that isn't far superior to that of other tanks.

If you claim a knight's damage is fine. You're wrong. Even in BiS DPS gear the knight's damage is well below that of all the other tanks in their BiS DPS setup.

Also, who interrupts a healer 4 times in a row? You can taunt, knockdown, then vicious slash when they get up. If you're punting them towards the group then you are doing a knockdown + punt play, where they are punted during the knockdown. Who cares about this magical 4 interrupt capability? It's a complete non-issue.

My suggested changes to the knight start with:

1. Original Runefang back as a baseline tactic
2. MS as a speccable tactic in the glory tree (can even put it where Runefang currently is)
3. Base damage on MF goes up slightly, then the channel can either increase in damage per hit or increase chance to crit per hit. A well placed interrupt provides outplay for the enemy team.
4. SI should do more damage for a 13 point ability.

If the knight were to run both MS and RF then they are giving up their utility tactics in order to be more damage focused. So the Y variable of the equation is going down to offset the X going up. That is a compromise that the individual player must make for the sake of their play style or what the group needs.

If this suddenly provides too high of a DPS ceiling then the devs can look at reducing the tactics as they see fit.

You only ever talk about all the abilities a class might have. Who runs M1 bubble or M2 EC outside of solo roaming? Being a STR stacking MS build knight used to provide an adequate amount of damage to even out the playing field in disparity of damage between tanks. The 15% extra damage you take was negated by the fact that you will be running FM for the majority of the time. Let alone the fact that you actually needed to slave away to get high enough gear to utilize MS in the first place.

Not might have...already has. I often switch between having m1 bubble/m2 EC and DS/DB, depending on the warband makeup for ORvR. Having soft cap strength wounds and toughness is a big help for applying debuffs while face tanking warbands. I also explained how helpful the m1 is when combined with vigilance.

Stack weapon skill as well as strength if you want to 'dps' I already post screenshots of the differences and benefits.

You don't need to slave away to utilize MS, I was critical hitting healers for over 1k with MS without sov/invader/sentinel/oppressor/bloodlord.

I now have high strength and weapon skill and I'm only in 3 piece warlord with Dom and Beastlord.

We are not talking about being a stat ***** with EC which only lasts 15 seconds. If you pop EC and then get punted away, what benefit have you provided to anyone? None. Stacking WS does not create some godtier DPS boost to the knight since MF is a mess right now and PS already ignores 25% of a target's armor.

Same could be said for applying guard and getting punted away, you still use guard right?

You can easily use morales when you have immunities. Good warbands will push when immunities are up.

Again, if stacking weapon skill and strength means you will hit your targets for 100+ more damage, your critical hits always scale accordingly. I posted screenshots of myself hitting a 2h tank. The more armor a target has the better the armor penetration % from weapon skill and PS.

Also, GYR only buffs the dot on BB and the pitiful damage HF gives. We don't have any other meaningful way to boost our damage outside of M1 Demo....

GYR will buff BB, HW, SotS, SB and enables the following classes to do more damage:

SM
AM
ENG
BW
SW
WL
RP
WP
WH

See a pattern here? The damage is lackluster in comparison to other dps tanks because the warband will compensate greatly and make up for the Knight's ceiling of burst dps.

Biting blade is easily replaced by slice through. Most 2H knights, I'd argue, will be running FM, BD, and OS. So with your one variable tactic you are going to run BB? Slice through will provide far greater utility to your team surviving and or catching targets.

I run with BB if in single target party where Slice Through is not generally needed, also when the warband has enough IB's, SW and AMs for the aoe snares. Can still apply the debuff when using Arcing Swing on the the melee train. The extra dot damage is a little helpful as well.

You would change tactics accordingly to the warband makeup but apparently some players in this thread think that's impossible.

The knight does dumpster damage compared to all other tanks. The utility the knight provides does not make up for the lack of damage. There is hardly any unique utility a knight provides to a group that other tanks do not. It's an easy formula to write out.

X = damage
Y = Utility
Z = Usefulness

X + Y = Z

If X is ****, does Y provide enough to offset and make sure our Z is on par with other tanks? That is what this thread is about. With MS you were able to make up the lack of damage to be a tank that did adequate damage with utility that isn't far superior to that of other tanks.

Again...The warband the Knight is in compensates greatly for the lack of burst the knight brings after Arcing Swing is applied...How many other order tanks can instantly remove 1200hp every 10 seconds?

If the Knight's damage is buffed even remotely close to the other order tanks, it's breaking the game.

Knights are the best and most accessible tanks for utility. I've explained it already and I've spent enough time on all three classes to know this.

Again...The warband the knight is in compensates greatly for the lack of burst the knight brings after Arcing Swing is applied

If you claim a knight's damage is fine. You're wrong. Even in BiS DPS gear the knight's damage is well below that of all the other tanks in their BiS DPS setup.

This game isn't about 1v1v1. I've explained it already. In BiS will still be critting light armour targets for 1k or more. Not enough damage?

Also, who interrupts a healer 4 times in a row? You can taunt, knockdown, then vicious slash when they get up. If you're punting them towards the group then you are doing a knockdown + punt play, where they are punted during the knockdown. Who cares about this magical 4 interrupt capability? It's a complete non-issue.

No it's not a non-issue. The question is how many other tanks only have up to 2 without punt. The issue was raised about the Knights inability to kill healers, in this case a DoK. Try running with an assist train on a DoK trying to AoE heal and use your 3 interrupts with a setback aura. If you are not being assisted, the punt can be used as a 4th interrupt and ensures no channelled heals are done for a short period of time.

It is easier interrupting a healer to death in an assist train than it is trying to get the killing blow yourself. It also puts enormous pressure on the party the healer is trying to AoE heal.

My suggested changes to the knight start with:

4. SI should do more damage for a 13 point ability.

Let's leave the baseline fluff damage the same, it's not primarily used for the damage. But lower the cooldown to coincide with the wounds debuff duration on Arcing Swing/Overpowered Swing. I guess even though warbands will benefit greatly from this it won't satisfy the players still clinging to MS.

If the knight were to run both MS and RF then they are giving up their utility tactics in order to be more damage focused. So the Y variable of the equation is going down to offset the X going up. That is a compromise that the individual player must make for the sake of their play style or what the group needs.

If this suddenly provides too high of a DPS ceiling then the devs can look at reducing the tactics as they see fit.

It will go back to square one if Knights are doing too much damage than they should be, and make players stop playing the roles they should be focusing on as a Knight class. It creates bad behaviour again. Giving back these tactics to the Knights and Chosens will not solve anything unless they or other abilities are modified.

You should have stopped after you said you run 3 piece warlord, dom, and beastlord for a "DPS" setup. I stopped reading after that, it all makes sense now.

No one is stopping you from enjoying your unique builds for the knight, especially if you are getting enjoyment out of it.

You should post your builds (mastery and renown) for all the other knights to try out!

[Uchoo]

i have 1 question... Kotbs needs more Weapon skill stat than

Chosen cause Blazing blade does less damage and it can be easy

cleansable than Ravage besides Chosen has Relentless spirit

damage ability also so it means Kotbs is more phisical damage

class but you NERFED RUNEFANG TOTTALY now it gives Toughness

instead of Strength and Weapon skill but Chosen has analog

tactic that you added is Deamonclaw with Strength and Weapon skill ????

After all changes you did i do not want to play as Kotbs at all

cause Chosen became is much more better now !

I agree, the tactic changes were a massive error in judgement on someone's part.

Was the original Runefang too strong? At the Knight's inception on live, not at all. Today with the renown system and gear we have on RoR? Possibly. What Knights need to function are some stats. Their base damage is not great so they need Str, knight scaling is actually alright (Strictly talking about PSM, the lack of AA haste, % damage, Damage Type Debuff are all missing and affect "scaling"). They're also mainly Phys so they need Pen. This is compounded by the fact that Knights are the only Tank that doesn't debuff their damage (I'm not saying that they need to.) The result is, they need Str and WS. While Runefang as a tactic was a notably strong one, Knights have no other steroid tactics. Compare to Chosen with 10% anticrit, 15% crit, Crippling Strikes (RIP); Black Orc/SM with 20% Crit, 10% damage & 5% parry; BG/IB 15% crit; IB's also have 10% damage & 5% parry; BG 30% Parry. Runefang as a single tactic is quite strong but that didn't matter because Knights have no other good steroid tactics, it gave them space for another utility tactic. Halved the stats on RF (120 Str/WS/Ini) would probably be balanced. The amount of parry which that amount of WS gives is NEVER going to equal 5% but the Ini and Str would make the tactic comparable to the bread-and-butter "10% Damage and 5% parry".

On top of this, their damage kit is terrible but we've covered that and suggested fixes already. Progress!

[kmark101]

Original Runefang buffed what, 720 stat? Ridiculously OP on a tactic, especially for what is still arguably the best tank in the game. Original Runefang is as cancerous as spammable pounce.

Knight damage is crap, yup everyone knows, doesn't matter. You buff the damage and you'd better kneecap the utility. This is almost as sad as the IB whine threads.

Yet noone ever whined about "knight doing too much damage" with that original "ridiculously OP tactic". It provided 10s burst window, that's 2 autoattack swings. TWO SWINGS. (The tactic did not refresh itself while still active, something that most ppl like you did not even know, so it's not a "spammable pounce".)

As it was described many times before, knight supposed to be the physical dps, while chosen supposed to be the magical dps originally. Knight's physical dps potential was Runefang (and many forgets that knight had a tactic high on the right tree to turn some of it's damage elemental, but it was pointless because you lost the special 25% armor ignore trait of Precision Strike, etc.. so it was a ragtag solution noone used). With MS/DW chosen got way overtuned, while knight still got castrated because it couldn't do physical dps anymore and MS, reason of this is the spirit damage debuff potential on destro, and the lack of elemental debuff on order. So it was a dead end from the first second for knight. Now chosen got tuned back down from God state and knight remained in it's trashy state, while chosen still kept the old knight's Runefang (at least the important part of it) due to some unknown reason.

(And just for the record, MS was deleted only because otherwise destro would have whined if only DW gets deleted... MS died in the collateral friendly fire.)

[Uchoo]

Knight damage is crap, yup everyone knows, doesn't matter. You buff the damage and you'd better kneecap the utility.

Again, is Knight utility really that good? 2H provides the same utility as 2H BG while being worse at damage and worse at living and lacking spam aoe.

Compared to Chosen, the kit is the same except for an outgoing heal debuff aura instead of incoming, Knight's Wounds debuff is restricted to 2H.

The only thing really worth debating is Focused Mending (which no one in this thread has brought up at this point.) 15% Healing for the realm of Order basically. Losing it puts your group's healing at about 89% potential (125/140). That's the ONE unique thing that Knight has, and yes, it is very strong.

If Staggering Impact and 2H knight was fixed into a state that did reasonable damage, they couldn't spec for everything good anyways. If you go SI, you're going to have knockdown maybe Vig -or- Heaven's Fury and Focused Mending; it doesn't all fit.


Does the Knight's Utility kit warrant them having such a terrible damage kit? I don't believe so. Should Knight have a terrible damage kit? I don't believe so.

[detrap]

You should have stopped after you said you run 3 piece warlord, dom, and beastlord for a "DPS" setup. I stopped reading after that, it all makes sense now.

No one is stopping you from enjoying your unique builds for the knight, especially if you are getting enjoyment out of it.

You should post your builds (mastery and renown) for all the other knights to try out!

I ran that build to max my weapon skill and strength as a demonstration explaining that we need to stack both those stats in order to raise our damage. It's all the armour I have atm to help explain the reasons for it -_-