Return of Reckoning

velenne wrote: ↑Tue Jun 02, 2020 1:05 pm
The class does not work as advertised. A lightly armored MDPS with no built-in knockdowns, one snare/root break, and few built-in debuffs is without question worse than all the other MDPS classes.

Can you explain, what you mean here?

The underlined portion, you mean? We have to spec heavily into our two knockdowns, and knockdowns are the best -dare I say fundamental- tool for a MDPS to secure a kill. There are so many other cc abilities, self heals, and escapes that a knockdown just negates.

It's better than stealth by far.

velenne wrote: ↑Tue Jun 02, 2020 5:27 pm The underlined portion, you mean? We have to spec heavily into our two knockdowns, and knockdowns are the best -dare I say fundamental- tool for a MDPS to secure a kill. There are so many other cc abilities, self heals, and escapes that a knockdown just negates.

It's better than stealth by far.

No difference from other melee, well except Choppa and Slayer, which is core lvl 30 but exhaust rage...

WH and WE have 2 knockdowns, others don't have that...

velenne wrote: ↑Tue Jun 02, 2020 5:27 pm The underlined portion, you mean? We have to spec heavily into our two knockdowns, and knockdowns are the best -dare I say fundamental- tool for a MDPS to secure a kill. There are so many other cc abilities, self heals, and escapes that a knockdown just negates.

It's better than stealth by far.

You have at least one knockdown with any spec you pick, so it doesn't matter whether kd is core or specable.

Sulorie wrote: ↑Tue Jun 02, 2020 10:32 pm

velenne wrote: ↑Tue Jun 02, 2020 5:27 pm The underlined portion, you mean? We have to spec heavily into our two knockdowns, and knockdowns are the best -dare I say fundamental- tool for a MDPS to secure a kill. There are so many other cc abilities, self heals, and escapes that a knockdown just negates.

It's better than stealth by far.

You have at least one knockdown with any spec you pick, so it doesn't matter whether kd is core or specable.

Not true (inquisition), but supports my point anyway. It's foolish not to spec into it. While yes, it's in two mastery trees (not that having more than one does you any good; if you try to knock down someone else, the first guy has already gotten back up by the time the gcd is done and you've switched back to him), it takes up a spot in that tree that could be used for something better.

WH are in a bad place right now. I don't see how that's up for debate.

velenne wrote: ↑Tue Jun 02, 2020 11:02 pm
Not true (inquisition), but supports my point anyway. It's foolish not to spec into it. While yes, it's in two mastery trees (not that having more than one does you any good; if you try to knock down someone else, the first guy has already gotten back up by the time the gcd is done and you've switched back to him), it takes up a spot in that tree that could be used for something better.

WH are in a bad place right now. I don't see how that's up for debate.

You always spec 2 mastery trees, so yes, you always have a knockdown. You don't spec mid tree and are done. You shouldn't kd someone and then hit someone else.
Both classes are in a bad place, if used for something they are not made for.

Sulorie wrote: ↑Wed Jun 03, 2020 6:47 am

velenne wrote: ↑Tue Jun 02, 2020 11:02 pm
Not true (inquisition), but supports my point anyway. It's foolish not to spec into it. While yes, it's in two mastery trees (not that having more than one does you any good; if you try to knock down someone else, the first guy has already gotten back up by the time the gcd is done and you've switched back to him), it takes up a spot in that tree that could be used for something better.

WH are in a bad place right now. I don't see how that's up for debate.

You always spec 2 mastery trees, so yes, you always have a knockdown. You don't spec mid tree and are done. You shouldn't kd someone and then hit someone else.
Both classes are in a bad place, if used for something they are not made for.

You keep making strawman points about things I didn't posit. :shrug:

velenne wrote: ↑Wed Jun 03, 2020 1:13 pm

Sulorie wrote: ↑Wed Jun 03, 2020 6:47 am

velenne wrote: ↑Tue Jun 02, 2020 11:02 pm
Not true (inquisition), but supports my point anyway. It's foolish not to spec into it. While yes, it's in two mastery trees (not that having more than one does you any good; if you try to knock down someone else, the first guy has already gotten back up by the time the gcd is done and you've switched back to him), it takes up a spot in that tree that could be used for something better.

WH are in a bad place right now. I don't see how that's up for debate.

You always spec 2 mastery trees, so yes, you always have a knockdown. You don't spec mid tree and are done. You shouldn't kd someone and then hit someone else.
Both classes are in a bad place, if used for something they are not made for.

You keep making strawman points about things I didn't posit. :shrug:

You exactly wrote this but nvm, keep complaining about WH, if it makes you feel better.

So.... I said, "if you try to knock down someone else, the first guy has already gotten back up by the time the gcd is done and you've switched back to him".
To which you said, "You shouldn't kd someone and then hit someone else."

So it sounds like we agree there. Two knockdowns is a waste of time. My solution to that would be to have a kd part of the core kit rather than something you have to spec for (ie, spend a mastery point; I'm suggesting you get a kd for free as part of the class itself. Maybe that wasn't clear.)

Then I say, "WH are in a bad place right now. I don't see how that's up for debate."
To which you seem to say, "Both classes are in a bad place, if used for something they are not made for."

But I didn't mention a second class. So I'm not sure how your statement follows mine. I also didn't mention doing something WH isn't made for, so that's where the point about strawmanning comes from.

To everyone else: Is this person some kind of troll I should ignore? I see they have 4700 posts and so have been around a lot longer, so.... maybe there's a language barrier here that I'm not aware of?

Nekkma wrote: ↑Tue Jun 02, 2020 7:05 am Having played alot with WEs, both here and on live, I believe alot of WE/WH play the class in WBs with solo-mode turned on. Drop the idea that you stealth around alone, trying to gank some healer in the outskirts of battle. With all the cross-healing flying around that will rarely result in a kill.

Get a guard and be a part of the melee train.

This is true, also it's true that the WE/WH is pretty bad on this server overall, so there's that as well.

But yea, out of all the MDPS classes, WE/WH players often have a hard time figuring out how to play in a group, esp if they don't have a lot of experience playing this game. In a group, a WE/WH is gonna play much like a Slayer/Choppa (with horrible AoE), and you will rarely if ever stealth.