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[WH] As a 55rr WH, I feel useless in RvR

Knight of the Blazing Sun, Bright Wizard, Witch Hunter, Warrior Priest

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velenne
Posts: 38

Re: [WH] As a 55rr WH, I feel useless in RvR

Post#31 » Wed Jun 03, 2020 7:46 pm

Foofmonger wrote:
Wed Jun 03, 2020 6:27 pm
Nekkma wrote:
Tue Jun 02, 2020 7:05 am
Having played alot with WEs, both here and on live, I believe alot of WE/WH play the class in WBs with solo-mode turned on. Drop the idea that you stealth around alone, trying to gank some healer in the outskirts of battle. With all the cross-healing flying around that will rarely result in a kill.

Get a guard and be a part of the melee train.
This is true, also it's true that the WE/WH is pretty bad on this server overall, so there's that as well.

But yea, out of all the MDPS classes, WE/WH players often have a hard time figuring out how to play in a group, esp if they don't have a lot of experience playing this game. In a group, a WE/WH is gonna play much like a Slayer/Choppa (with horrible AoE), and you will rarely if ever stealth.
...with less damage, and light armor.

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dalinvar
Posts: 60

Re: [WH] As a 55rr WH, I feel useless in RvR

Post#32 » Wed Jun 03, 2020 8:13 pm

it is so sad to see WH in such situation, definetively wanted to roll one for soloing..

please devs bring some love to the class!

*** something like perma-stealth :P ***

Foofmonger
Posts: 317

Re: [WH] As a 55rr WH, I feel useless in RvR

Post#33 » Wed Jun 03, 2020 9:41 pm

velenne wrote:
Wed Jun 03, 2020 7:46 pm
Foofmonger wrote:
Wed Jun 03, 2020 6:27 pm
Nekkma wrote:
Tue Jun 02, 2020 7:05 am
Having played alot with WEs, both here and on live, I believe alot of WE/WH play the class in WBs with solo-mode turned on. Drop the idea that you stealth around alone, trying to gank some healer in the outskirts of battle. With all the cross-healing flying around that will rarely result in a kill.

Get a guard and be a part of the melee train.
This is true, also it's true that the WE/WH is pretty bad on this server overall, so there's that as well.

But yea, out of all the MDPS classes, WE/WH players often have a hard time figuring out how to play in a group, esp if they don't have a lot of experience playing this game. In a group, a WE/WH is gonna play much like a Slayer/Choppa (with horrible AoE), and you will rarely if ever stealth.
...with less damage, and light armor.
No, Slayers/Choppas have even worse armor when in the red, and worse resistances, so the defense is somewhat comparable (and choppas/slayers not in the red do less damage than WH/WE), and as I already stated, WH/WE are pretty bad on this server right now.

The point is that is how you play the class, like any MDPS class. Yes, they suck, but so do many of the players who try to play them like they are playing a Rogue in WoW instead of understanding the role of MDPS in this game. I can't tell you how many WH/WEs I see who go off on their own and try to gank healers instead of staying with their guard and assist training.

So yes, WH/WE has issues as a class at this moment on the server, but also, there's always been a player issue with these classes as it pertains to the post I responded to. This is not new, WH/WEs players have been trying to play like this since 2008, and it didn't even work well when they were strong classes on live, it was always a bad and stupid way to try and play the class in most group settings (there are corner cases where going off on your own or doing solo backline disruption is viable, but they are not the norm). Also, stealth is still valuable in organized settings, but you have to know how to use it. You use it to either break aggro/assist trains to get yourself healed up (via vanishes), or you use it to surprise and perform coordinated backline disruption while the rest of your team barrels into the frontlines (aka OYKing the healers as the push goes in so they can't focus on healing the targets that are being assist trained, at least for a WE).

So as stated by the poster I responded to, part of the issue is a "solo mentality" even when in groups. If you think "hey I can just stealth and go attack those healers and ignore what my group is doing" you ain't playing properly.

velenne
Posts: 38

Re: [WH] As a 55rr WH, I feel useless in RvR

Post#34 » Wed Jun 03, 2020 11:17 pm

Foofmonger wrote:
Wed Jun 03, 2020 9:41 pm
So as stated by the poster I responded to, part of the issue is a "solo mentality" even when in groups. If you think "hey I can just stealth and go attack those healers and ignore what my group is doing" you ain't playing properly.
I think we're getting to the meat of the issue now: the vision for the class. I see people all the time talk about "get in -gank- get out", and how WH's are meant to be solo etc, and then folks like you come along and say "no no, the game isn't played like that".

Well it can't be both. If what you're saying is true (and I agree with you), then WH needs a new kit because the stealth isn't doing any good. If he is in fact meant to ride or die on his own, then let's tweak his abilities a little bit to reflect that.

Either way it's a bad spot now. I encourage anyone still reading to go back and look at the last 3 big threads on WH's in this forum. [1] [2] [3]

Wow! What a diverse set of opinions! I'm sure that's not unique to the WH except in one respect: No one can seem to agree on the actual vision for the class! That, to me, reflects a fundamental flaw in the kit right now. That's what I'm hoping to address here. Maybe some other life-long WH's can chime in with their thoughts.

Starx
Posts: 279

Re: [WH] As a 55rr WH, I feel useless in RvR

Post#35 » Thu Jun 04, 2020 2:11 am

Game cant handle a traditional stealth ganker or stealth disruptor.

Theres just too much defensive tools in the game that organized groups have access to. If you were to buff WH around being able to be a real threat against an organized 6 man, in terms of "we cant let the WH just tear up our backlines" then the damage required would make them MONSTERS against pug groups that aren't taking advantage of things like guard, detaunt, bellow, challenge, morales etc...

If you were to lets say give WH a disuptor role how exactly would you go about doing that when this game has the baby mode 30 sec CC immunities? And lets say you give them perma stealth and something like a 9 sec sap that would probably help them out 1vx and 24v24 but then it would absolutely destroy 6v6 balance.

Duukar
Posts: 47

Re: [WH] As a 55rr WH, I feel useless in RvR

Post#36 » Thu Jun 04, 2020 5:36 am

The answer is simple.

Let them wear medium armor that slightly reduces AP costs but prevents stealth.

Let them wear light armor that allows stealth and buffs evade.

Pair that with a modest 15% damage increase almost across the board.

Suddenly that 75% heal debuff looks pretty good on the train in medium armor.

velenne
Posts: 38

Re: [WH] As a 55rr WH, I feel useless in RvR

Post#37 » Thu Jun 04, 2020 12:43 pm

Duukar wrote:
Thu Jun 04, 2020 5:36 am
The answer is simple.

Let them wear medium armor that slightly reduces AP costs but prevents stealth.

Let them wear light armor that allows stealth and buffs evade.

Pair that with a modest 15% damage increase almost across the board.

Suddenly that 75% heal debuff looks pretty good on the train in medium armor.
It's clever but would also require them to make double the armor sets and models for our class. I don't see that happening.

I think our fundamental issue at the moment is that the devs think the class is in a good place. My post above would suggest it's not.

KingGrave
Posts: 11

Re: [WH] As a 55rr WH, I feel useless in RvR

Post#38 » Thu Jun 04, 2020 5:06 pm

We just had another fix today 6/3/20 for the WH, because it was performing better than designed....at least that's what the devs see.

We beg for them to look into the class so that a population of players can enjoy the game playing a class that was in the game.
If there was a warning when you chose the class (not recommended for warbands or cities). Then at least we would go into it knowing that.

What happens instead is we play the class and we want it to work, some of us spend a lot of time doing so. The witch hunter players do every thing possible to make it "feel" viable- yet we know deep down we could accomplish what ever we are doing better with another class.

This is a free game. There is no incentive for the devs to really care about a class. There are other classes to play.

I wait every patch for some sort of tweak on the class yet all I see are "fixes" to class abilities that NO ONE even noticed or cared about.

The population is dwindling and you see it every day you log in.

I almost got to 80 rr for my WH but now I see the fault was mine.

There will be some cool people I will miss in the game, and I had some cool times. But I said good bye to this game years ago and I'll say it again.

Devs, I appreciate the hard work. It was a cool home project that had a real chance.

The more people that play and then level up will realize you have no control over the grind. It is luck. You need to be on at the right times to get the gear you need to compete. We rely on others players to play with some sort of ethics in order to progress (xrealming).

Ah well it was fun.

Occido.

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Foofmonger
Posts: 317

Re: [WH] As a 55rr WH, I feel useless in RvR

Post#39 » Thu Jun 04, 2020 6:08 pm

velenne wrote:
Wed Jun 03, 2020 11:17 pm
Foofmonger wrote:
Wed Jun 03, 2020 9:41 pm
So as stated by the poster I responded to, part of the issue is a "solo mentality" even when in groups. If you think "hey I can just stealth and go attack those healers and ignore what my group is doing" you ain't playing properly.
I think we're getting to the meat of the issue now: the vision for the class. I see people all the time talk about "get in -gank- get out", and how WH's are meant to be solo etc, and then folks like you come along and say "no no, the game isn't played like that".

Well it can't be both. If what you're saying is true (and I agree with you), then WH needs a new kit because the stealth isn't doing any good. If he is in fact meant to ride or die on his own, then let's tweak his abilities a little bit to reflect that.

Either way it's a bad spot now. I encourage anyone still reading to go back and look at the last 3 big threads on WH's in this forum. [1] [2] [3]

Wow! What a diverse set of opinions! I'm sure that's not unique to the WH except in one respect: No one can seem to agree on the actual vision for the class! That, to me, reflects a fundamental flaw in the kit right now. That's what I'm hoping to address here. Maybe some other life-long WH's can chime in with their thoughts.
That's a perfectly fair analysis I believe. I believe the classes have always had a confusing vision, but were never meant to be "solo gankers, in/out" as you put.

Foofmonger
Posts: 317

Re: [WH] As a 55rr WH, I feel useless in RvR

Post#40 » Thu Jun 04, 2020 6:09 pm

Starx wrote:
Thu Jun 04, 2020 2:11 am
Game cant handle a traditional stealth ganker or stealth disruptor.

If you were to lets say give WH a disuptor role how exactly would you go about doing that when this game has the baby mode 30 sec CC immunities? And lets say you give them perma stealth and something like a 9 sec sap that would probably help them out 1vx and 24v24 but then it would absolutely destroy 6v6 balance.
Some access to more interrupts would be a start. Other options include AP/Morale Drains, build time increasers, cd reduction increasers, outgoing heal debuffs, etc..

There's way to do it that doesn't necessarily involve hard CC or the CC timer.

My very rough vision for all the MDPS classes would be thus:

WH/WE: Highest single target damage, lowest aoe damage (but some). Lowest armor. Stealth, lots of disruption, medium mobility.
Mara/WL: Medium single target damage, medium aoe damage. Medium armor. Medium disruption, High mobility.
Choppa/Slayer: Medium single target damage, high aoe damage. Keep Zerk mechanic (medium/low armor and resists). Low disruption, low mobility.

The WH/WE classes should be best at getting on a single target, in the backlines, and disrupting them/bursting them down. They should be the best "main assist" dps in the game who can rip through single targets run after another.

The Mara/WL classes should be "good all arounders" who aren't the best at doing damage, but have no glaring weaknesses, high mobility allowing them to play the "linebacker role" in combat.

The Choppa/Slayer classes should do by far the most AoE damage and still good ST damage. They play the "get stuck in" berzerker type of role where their goal is to get into the middle of combat and just wreck groups of people who don't properly contain them.
Last edited by Foofmonger on Thu Jun 04, 2020 6:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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