[KotBS] Question about runefang

[TimOh]

This is a legitimate question that I have and not meant as any sort of trolling or a post meant to start any kind of dev bias argument. I am really just curious.

I have played destruction almost exclusively while on RoR and mostly as blackguard. When I read that order needed tanks I thought I would level a knight and possibly make the switch to play order exclusively, at least for awhile . I was looking over the forums and builder to re-familiarize myself with the options available to the knight. The biggest thing that I saw was that runefang is not what I remember it to be and that chosen now have a similar tactic in the two hand spec. I was wondering what the reasoning for this was. This, to me, seemed like an interesting tactic that gave the knight some uniqueness.

[kmark101]

This is something that noone understand, so you are not alone.

Runefang provided the necessary STR/WS ingredient to the knight's only viable - still weak - dps. Besides it was one of the most iconic tactic of the game, a true staple of the race and class.

Chosens got the STR/WS version (of course...) I don't care, but why remove it from the knight is beyond me, not like knight needed any dps nerf or anymore toughness...

[Skald]

It's often mentioned that this game isn't balanced around 1 on 1 fights, but the Runefang nerf disaproves that notion. It had zero impact on WB on WB warfare. It certainly didn't affect the 6 vs 6 scene either, as the standard build of a Greatsword knight in such a setting would be focused purely on group support (Focused Mending, Slice Through, Overpowering Swing, Banish Darkness). Which only leaves one conclusion.

"But it's 720 FREE STATS" - it seems like quite a lot, when judged in isolation. However, when you actually take a look at the class as a whole, it's a different story.

1. Knight was, even back then, a tank class with the lowest DPS potential, that much hasn't been disuputed. The Path of Conquest, an alleged DPS tree, offers very little in the way of offense. And most importantly, outside of M1, the knights have no way to debuff their primary damage source (physical). Now that's an important part, as Chosen have that capability from the get go - they primarily (even without Discordant Winds tactic) deal spiritual damage.

Why's that important? Because spiritual damage can only reach a ~45% mitigation at best - and far less with the Discordant Instability (resistance aura) applied. On the other hand, physical damage reduction reaches much higher levels - it can go past 100%. Keep in mind that armour stacking has been the meta of this server for a long time too (that's what most healers will do, for example), that everyone has an armour potion on at all the times and finally that with the introduction of Sovereign, the armour rates have gone up even further.

Now of course Precision Strike ignores 25% of the armour and there's a Weapon Skill which also has an armour penetration component. Most 2H Knights will probably reach around ~400 WS, which translates to roughly 30% armour penetration. Even with that in mind, knights typically have to go up against significantly bigger mitigation values than the Chosen.

Now of course we could pick up the Mighty Soul tactic, but it's even worse than the much maligned Focused Offense - 15% increased damage received is a crippling disadvantage.

To sum it up - Runefang provided the Knights the only means of improving their armour penetration (aside from M1). That, combined with the extra strength, allowed the Knights to roughly reach the Chosen levels of damage. Now, mind you, as I've mentioned above, it still was the worst among the tanks (and I mean for both Chosen and Knights).

2.Chosen have access to Suppression (which is a core ability), a staggering 25% bonus to parry for 15 seconds, with a 10 second cooldown (which means it has potential 100% uptime, unless it's blocked/parried). Knights have no way to boost their parry, outside of the Coordination tactic. But it's for shield users only and requires a tactic slot (and it's 15%, not 25%).

Runefang provided 240 WS, which translated to roughly 8% parry, now it's gone, which means that the Greatsword Knight has no means of improving their defences.

3. Aside from Vigilance (which requires a significant investment in the relevant tree), Knights have no defensive mechanisms. There's of course Perserverance, but it doesn't stack with armour potions, making its value questionable. That's why Runefang had toughness and initiative - the latter because Chosen have access to Flawless Armor tactic.

4. To summarize - I believe none of the above factors were taken into account when that nerf was depolyed and that Runefang was judged in isolation. The only way the knights could overcome the abovementioned shortcomings was through stat stacking - which I believe was why Runefang was included in the original design of the class. I also believe that people are overestimating the value of these stat increases - I'd very much rather have access to effects like BO's You Wot?! (10% more damage, 30% more armour and resistances and a 15% increase in defences) than 720 stats, for example.

If it being a core tactic is a problem, then have it replace Efficient Swings (11-pointer in the Path of Conquest), which nobody uses anyway. It would also mean it wouldn't be easily attainable for shield users. And perhaps remove or reduce the value of Initiative and Toughness on it.

[mytreds]

It’s funny how other tanks get so many more options than the knight, yet because we have auras, we are nerfed in other areas and relegated to being aura bots, nothing more.

[Skald]

It’s funny how other tanks get so many more options than the knight, yet because we have auras, we are nerfed in other areas and relegated to being aura bots, nothing more.

And I believe it will stay that way until some sort of mechanic is introduced for the Knights/Chosen- I proposed one here.

[normanis]

well runefang was too op so its get nerfed ( kobs) and gived to choosen ( better version for magic dealer dps tank).
p.s from 2007 year runefang was kobs main tactic and rip it last year 2019.
chaos gods needed 12 years to nerf it

[mickeye]

well runefang was too op so its get nerfed ( kobs) and gived to choosen ( better version for magic dealer dps tank).
p.s from 2007 year runefang was kobs main tactic and rip it last year 2019.
chaos gods needed 12 years to nerf it

I wasn't playing nor paying attention to the forums for like 2 years but I might understand that they wanted to tone down Runefang but I am completely baffled what they did to tactic and that they gave it to Chosen. What was the reasoning? Like seriously...

[normanis]

well runefang was too op so its get nerfed ( kobs) and gived to choosen ( better version for magic dealer dps tank).
p.s from 2007 year runefang was kobs main tactic and rip it last year 2019.
chaos gods needed 12 years to nerf it

I wasn't playing nor paying attention to the forums for like 2 years but I might understand that they wanted to tone down Runefang but I am completely baffled what they did to tactic and that they gave it to Chosen. What was the reasoning? Like seriously...

it was diskussed long time ago( right after nerf). and real answers noone give to us players . why its tooked to long to nerf it.
p.s well 2h kobs anyway is aoe crit debuff bot. and this game is not balanced 1vs1 ( ) . maby main reason was 6vs6 where kobs was good with 2h . byt why give runefang to spirit dealer chosen who can already be more tanky than 2h kobs . and deal bigger dps than kobs.
p.ss ravage spamer chosen on live crited 1k