WP - New ability in Wrath, is it viable?

[Unstoppable1776]

Roll a dok if you prefer the abilities. If you make the classes mirror exactly it limits the variation in the game. This game doesn’t limit you to one side, nor does it make you play a certain side. If you are playing for the looks or faction and that’s your reason for playing than you have to sacrifices other things you want. You can never have everything. If I want to play a 2h dps healer I have that option. (Roll a WP) if I want to play a duel wield (I’ll roll a dok) if I want the defensive side I’ll roll a WP, and so on. If you make them exact mirrors I say again...you cut the game variation in half.

[peterthepan3]

Sledges were changed a while back to grant parry strikethrough. I am unsure if it is still the case so would need clarification.

Bella: it's not about reducing variety; rather, allowing both Wrath AND Torture to function as DPS. Sounds like more variety to me. The melee healing trees are separate entities altogether and warrant separate discussions.

[Fallenkezef]

Sledges were changed a while back to grant parry strikethrough. I am unsure if it is still the case so would need clarification.

Bella: it's not about reducing variety; rather, allowing both Wrath AND Torture to function as DPS. Sounds like more variety to me. The melee healing trees are separate entities altogether and warrant separate discussions.

If all 2h had parry strike it may encourage more 2h slayer/choppa builds aswell.

I agree WP and Dok are uneven but isn't it the point not to have exact mirrors? If WP have summat defensive or utility to balance doks damage output?

[peterthepan3]

Grace is the defensive tree: a toughness buff, a parry buff, a wounds buff, stronger lifetap and Sigmar's Shield. Wrath has nothing in the way of defense enhancements, and with the new 15pt mandatory charge, you will be severely restricted in what you can get from Grace (as should be the case if we are arguing for a stronger Wrath).

[Fallenkezef]

Grace is the defensive tree: a toughness buff, a parry buff, a wounds buff, stronger lifetap and Sigmar's Shield. Wrath has nothing in the way of defense enhancements, and with the new 15pt mandatory charge, you will be severely restricted in what you can get from Grace (as should be the case if we are arguing for a stronger Wrath).

Sounds like we need to break it down to basics. Look at each class's dps tree, establish what makes WP and DoK so different in dps and work from there

[retekelek]

Spoiler:

im thinking on if Bludgeon would get much more damage from scale of points spent on wrath tree, than it could fix a bit about it, because at this point it not worth to use it even if you try to fill dps role in a party, since sigmars radiance also heals the party.

Interesting idea about increasing the damage of Bludgeon.

Unfortunately, I don't think the players would use Bludgeon even with increased damage. There is simply no room left in your skill rotation. With the existing wrath-skills Castigation, Weight of Guilt, Smite and Hammer of Sigmar you already got more than enough to do, and you still have to fit in some self-buffs from grace tree (Sigmars Fist, Sigmars Vision), and of course the defensive stuff like Divine Assault, Detaunt, Cleanse, HoT, Sigmars Radiance. On top of all this you got utility like Silence, Purge, Healdebuff, AOE-Knockback, ...

How on earth are you gonna fit all this into a 10 seconds rotation and still have time to spam Bludgeon?

You don't!

Bludgeon would have to deal damage comparable to Hammer of Sigmar, or I wouldn't even put it on my hotbar.

Well true but u could still put out a few, i mean u basically change it whit the sigmars radiance ability because u dont want to heal ur party while doing damage u just want to fill dps role and if u want to do the opposite than u using sigmars radiance instead of bludgeon while also have more points on grace tree/less on wrath = less damage whit bludgeon.
i checked my radiance hit 437 whit 6 point in grace and my Bludgeon hits 471 whit 20 points in wrath. Absolute wortless that 34 more damage compared radiance that can heal a lot on party even whitout the tatic.
Thinking the same, its should hit around the improved hammer of sigmar whit the spent points scale.
Also if the improved hammer of sigmars cast time reduce would also affect divine assault that would give a nice burst ability combo, but that would require some testing ofc because could be a too op change.

[Fallenkezef]

Grace is the defensive tree: a toughness buff, a parry buff, a wounds buff, stronger lifetap and Sigmar's Shield. Wrath has nothing in the way of defense enhancements, and with the new 15pt mandatory charge, you will be severely restricted in what you can get from Grace (as should be the case if we are arguing for a stronger Wrath).

Sounds like we need to break it down to basics. Look at each class's dps tree, establish what makes WP and DoK so different in dps and work from there

when you break it down dok get a dot and a heal debuff on crit tactic, WP get a 10s (duration and CD), on demand, incoming heal debuff and guilty soul, there is no huge discrepancy.

The potential for disparity is ability terms is the utility in celerity which is incredibly good and the cast time in soultfire which is incredibly bad but cant be properly fixed but as a band aid WP have accelerated intimation after using Hammer of Sigmar which cuts cast times by 50% which can serve to facilitate soulfire (and other things such as a fast rez).

Otherwise you have weapon disparities, DW means you can proc more from landing more hits and gain 10% parry, WP 2h gives +10% strikethrough against parry and block and lands larger AAs.

Its apples and oranges but there is no blatant power gap.

So some cases of confirmation bias and grass is greener?

People do tend to get mirror envy at times. I know I look at runefang with green-tinyed eyes.

[Rydiak]

Devour Essence is better for damage than Sigmar's Shield, obviously, but I think Sigmar's Shield is better for healing. You don't want Sigmar's Shield as a Wrath WP with the new 16 pointer anyways, so it is a moot issue. If anything, a DoK that wants Devour Essence and the new 16 pointer will lose out on a lot of supplementary abilities. As Torquemadra said, there are differences on both sides but no huge discrepancy.

[Mystry]

when you break it down dok get a dot and a heal debuff on crit tactic, WP get a 10s (duration and CD), on demand, incoming heal debuff and guilty soul, there is no huge discrepancy.

No Wrath WP can justify dropping DF, Fanaticism, HD or IR for guilty soul. It's not a tactic that is usable because there's no room for it.

[Rydiak]

when you break it down dok get a dot and a heal debuff on crit tactic, WP get a 10s (duration and CD), on demand, incoming heal debuff and guilty soul, there is no huge discrepancy.

No Wrath WP can justify dropping DF, Fanaticism, HD or IR for guilty soul. It's not a tactic that is usable because there's no room for it.

DoK has Divine Fury, Murderous Intent, Khaine's Blessing, Khaine's Imbuement, Curse of Khaine, and Terrifying Aura as good tactics for a DPS build. Which four do they pick, and which ones do they not use? If they take Terrifying Aura they have to lose a damage tactic. Same book, different page.