[Warrior Priest] - Grace

[Bignusty]

...
How it's going on T1? Wagons of 2h Wps, steamrolling all around?

Going to make a wp, it should be pretty fun running around in t1 with a aoe detaunt.

Already did
So amazing: detaunt all that damn sorcs and shs in just one button click and running in front of them laughting
My survivability is more than tanks one
Sure, I still need side healer but in less value than in was before.
My special /laugh now always going to 2w DOKs - they are so loosers

You are on t1 man Wp on t1 is always op... try it on t2 or t3 and you will be less enjoyed ... if one rdps is not detaunt you die if you detaunt all rdps you are killed before to hit one of them ( constant snare / always disarm / stun / root). So for me whit a lot of test whit renown build (like deft defender/strengh) this aoe detaunt isnt overpowered as said some here sure against a melee dps focus it's usefull but that all.

[ThePollie]

Heres a question, we talked about the WP wounds thing and how its weak because it gets severed, what if we changed the type to a buff but changed some variables so that it dosnt become op?

I've thought about this, but I'm on the fence.

On one side, the buff is virtually useless. It's always purged immediately by any respectable tank, wasting a mastery point in the process.

On the other hand, the buff is 720 extra health. A hefty portion of even a Sorcerer's burst, before mitigation come into play. There were arguments for increasing the buff itself to compensate for the sever, but it wouldn't help. Even 3000 health would be pointless, it will still be purged. Worse, buffing it will only intensify how diligent a tank is with seeing it purged.

I've tried running without it, with mixed results. If the enemy fails to purge it, it's a nice bit of extra tankiness. But more often than not, I find it's little more than a purge-buffer to prevent them from taking Healing Hand off quite as quickly. Little else. The real value lies in dealing with classes that can't Sever and aren't being supported. But I don't think an ability's value should be based around how well it works when the enemy is incompetent.

[Eathisword]

Wall of text deleted, grrrrrrrrrr.

A consensus seems to be clear in this thread : melee WP's need to be stronger.

1- They need more something when out of melee range.
Ok. I say mirror Judgement to AM's Balance Essence. Keep the 1 sec cast on the move and damage the same, just add the 150% heal effect to defensive target. There : a 250-500 heal, that will minimize downtime and give more healing. It is a baseline ability and that change would not benefit Salvation WP at all : they have access to better heals.

2- They need utility to give incentive to group to want them
Granted a double tank, double slayer, WP, RP group would not want one. But to be fair, they wouldn't want any other class either, so...

For other group, give WP a good Heal Debuff like the RP one or the zealot one. There : you can now team up with Engineers, SM, WL and make em profit without having to do more damage and becoming a uber DPS. You just became a good thing for them, instead of a liability.

Now we can put it in wrath spec, and we would have an ok melee WP with subpar heals and subpar damage.
But, we can also put it in the Grace line, by deleting Leading the prayer, putting Grace of Sigmar as the 7 point tactic and the heal debuff as the 11 points one. Then, we would have an ok melee healer with really good utility. In T4, he could have acces to a bit more healing with Pious Restoration and Divine Light.

Also, don't make Sigmar's Radiance spirit damage. It would be 40%+ mitigated by everyone due to resist softcap. At least now, with decent WS, we can crit big on squishies with low armor.

Sinceriously,
Leningrad / Lenie, formerly known on Badlands as Eathisbook.

[Shanell]

For me, the best option for the 11x Grace tactic is to make Sigmar's Radiance and Divine Assault undefendable. This way the baseline (no tactics) Grace WP can be made to heal for competitive numbers but has the option in higher tiers to slot a tactic so that they can heal with less interference while attacking the enemy front line.

Better give them ability to hold 2 2handed weapons at once and ability enrage with 500% boost dps, 80% crit and selfguard.

[dave2278]

If you hit a target with Sigmar Radiance/Transfer Essence that is shield should heal still proc for the base heal?

[ThePollie]

Wall of text deleted, grrrrrrrrrr.

A consensus seems to be clear in this thread : melee WP's need to be stronger.

1- They need more something when out of melee range.
Ok. I say mirror Judgement to AM's Balance Essence. Keep the 1 sec cast on the move and damage the same, just add the 150% heal effect to defensive target. There : a 250-500 heal, that will minimize downtime and give more healing. It is a baseline ability and that change would not benefit Salvation WP at all : they have access to better heals.
I disagree. We don't need means to heal outside of melee, we need means to get to and stay in melee. As it is, we're too easily snared and forced out of range, with no means to get back in outside of slowly walking back.

2- They need utility to give incentive to group to want them
Granted a double tank, double slayer, WP, RP group would not want one. But to be fair, they wouldn't want any other class either, so...
We have utility, we just aren't high enough rank to access it yet. At about 36 we have a 4 second Silence and an AoE stagger on Morale. With Endless Guilt we even get a 10 second AoE snare. I believe we're fine on utility, just wish we actually had access to it.

For other group, give WP a good Heal Debuff like the RP one or the zealot one. There : you can now team up with Engineers, SM, WL and make em profit without having to do more damage and becoming a uber DPS. You just became a good thing for them, instead of a liability.
The only change that should be made here is setting Wrath's heal debuff to 50%, on par with the others. As it stands, there is no reason to play Wrath, let alone play it for a very small heal debuff. The tree as a whole needs work, anyway.

Now we can put it in wrath spec, and we would have an ok melee WP with subpar heals and subpar damage.
But, we can also put it in the Grace line, by deleting Leading the prayer, putting Grace of Sigmar as the 7 point tactic and the heal debuff as the 11 points one. Then, we would have an ok melee healer with really good utility. In T4, he could have acces to a bit more healing with Pious Restoration and Divine Light.
Grace does not need a heal debuff, even a small one. Our role in combat is to support allies and put pressure on enemies. As for deleting Leading the Prayer, I don't approve. It's a solid tactic, albeit RNG dependent. I'd rather see Grace of Sigmar removed and its effect made baseline with Sigmar's Radiance.

Also, don't make Sigmar's Radiance spirit damage. It would be 40%+ mitigated by everyone due to resist softcap. At least now, with decent WS, we can crit big on squishies with low armor.
As opposed to 55-75% by armour? Spirit resistance is difficult to obtain and there are ways to debuff it. I'm on the fence about changing the damage to Spirit. It would help us deal with the excessive mitigation we are going to see, since a lot of people are already stacking armour talismans, and it will get worse in T4. But modifying damage types could be problematic.

Edit- To compare that further, I have no armour talismans and unbuffed I already have 40% physical resistance. Buffed, that number goes to about 57%.

Sinceriously,
Leningrad / Lenie, formerly known on Badlands as Eathisbook.

[TenTonHammer]

A semi silly, semi serious suggetion

Sigmars grace becomes a 14 point specable charge that requires great weapon that ofc only affects you

[Eathisword]

Wall of text deleted, grrrrrrrrrr.

1- I disagree. We don't need means to heal outside of melee, we need means to get to and stay in melee. As it is, we're too easily snared and forced out of range, with no means to get back in outside of slowly walking back.

2- We have utility, we just aren't high enough rank to access it yet. At about 36 we have a 4 second Silence and an AoE stagger on Morale. With Endless Guilt we even get a 10 second AoE snare. I believe we're fine on utility, just wish we actually had access to it.

3- The only change that should be made here is setting Wrath's heal debuff to 50%, on par with the others. As it stands, there is no reason to play Wrath, let alone play it for a very small heal debuff. The tree as a whole needs work, anyway.

4- Grace does not need a heal debuff, even a small one. Our role in combat is to support allies and put pressure on enemies. As for deleting Leading the Prayer, I don't approve. It's a solid tactic, albeit RNG dependent. I'd rather see Grace of Sigmar removed and its effect made baseline with Sigmar's Radiance.

5- As opposed to 55-75% by armour? Spirit resistance is difficult to obtain and there are ways to debuff it. I'm on the fence about changing the damage to Spirit. It would help us deal with the excessive mitigation we are going to see, since a lot of people are already stacking armour talismans, and it will get worse in T4. But modifying damage types could be problematic.

Edit- To compare that further, I have no armour talismans and unbuffed I already have 40% physical resistance. Buffed, that number goes to about 57%.

Sinceriously,
Leningrad / Lenie, formerly known on Badlands as Eathisbook.

1- We don't lack mobility... Mdps have a 10sec immunity on a 1 min CD. We have cleanse to cure a lot of snares and some roots + we can heal a bit with HoT... We have basically the same mobility as WH/WE that do not have charge.

2- We have 0 utility. AoE snares need a tactic we can't spare atm, nor in T4. Tanks do that better anyway. M3 is not good. Well, it is good, but in a tough fight you'll never get to use it cause you'll need M1 or M2 99% of the time to make your group survive (M2, focus mind... immunity to roots on a 1 min CD... ya know) We have silence, true... But RP have stagger on demand. AM have Motm. Mdps have KD. Tanks have KD. Why waste immunity on silence ? Solo it is good. It is not an incentive to get into a group... Hey boys... I has silence ! See if that works...

3- We need a stronger heal debuff then a 10 sec cleansable one on a 20 sec CD. But making 50% would be a good start.

4- Making heal debuff in grace would let us be better melee healer then dok, who do more damage. I thought this was Azarael's point. Personally, Wrath or Grace is fine, as long as it has same CD as duration : 10 sec.

5- WS is king. Premade all have softcap spirit now. In T4 even baddies will have softcap resist. Bring a chosen, it's even worse. It can be debuffed but so can armor. With 35-40% armor penetration, you'll do more damage then with spirit specially on light armor target. They can get to 50% mitigation with armor pots. bypassing 40% of it is awesome. If they get armor debuffed it is near 0 mitigation.

For the lols, I took screenshot. As of today, with obliterator gear and a blue bandit 2 hander (500 strength, 400 WS, 14% crit chance with fanaticism), this is the potential we have for healing WITH BAD GEAR... Very close to some decent salvation WP. Decent damage. Less then DoK, but more healing.
http://imgur.com/mD76dnw

Sinceriously,
Lenie / Leningrad

[SilverWF]

For the lols, I took screenshot. As of today, with obliterator gear and a blue bandit 2 hander (500 strength, 400 WS, 14% crit chance with fanaticism), this is the potential we have for healing WITH BAD GEAR... Very close to some decent salvation WP. Decent damage. Less then DoK, but more healing.
http://imgur.com/mD76dnw

Just a note: Disintegrator is well geared DPS-DOK, who is not trying to heal allies (maybe, over 1-2)
You, in your bad gear died less than him and made the same number of frags. 2 times less damage, but 2 times more healing (obviously, Radiance spam).
You have equal number of healers and DPS-healers there, but your healers was worse. If they were even equal to destro healers (I mean players, sure, not classes) - you didn't died even once and dealt much more damage and healing.

[Toldavf]

For the lols, I took screenshot. As of today, with obliterator gear and a blue bandit 2 hander (500 strength, 400 WS, 14% crit chance with fanaticism), this is the potential we have for healing WITH BAD GEAR... Very close to some decent salvation WP. Decent damage. Less then DoK, but more healing.
http://imgur.com/mD76dnw

Just a note: Disintegrator is well geared DPS-DOK, who is not trying to heal allies (maybe, over 1-2)
You, in your bad gear died less than him and made the same number of frags. 2 times less damage, but 2 times more healing (obviously, Radiance spam).
You have equal number of healers and DPS-healers there, but your healers was worse. If they were even equal to destro healers (I mean players, sure, not classes) - you didn't died even once and dealt much more damage and healing.

The screenie doesn't really tell the whole story. There's no way of knowing what other classes are in the sc dealing damage how much was dealt, and how easy the tanks made the healers job with guard swap. This seems to be a bit deceptive as information to be actual evidence.