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[IB] Masochistic class?

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kmark101
Posts: 482

Re: [IB] Masochistic class?

Post#51 » Fri Aug 13, 2021 5:56 pm

NSKaneda wrote: Fri Aug 13, 2021 5:08 pm BGs generate more hate but they spend more hate too.

IBs generate less grudges but have more grudge-generating skills and spend their mechanic points on less skills overall. This + racial tactics make them more resilient (and then we have racial and class synergies that either don't require doubling up on armour debuff or by-pass armour all together).
How is slow grudge generating makes them more resilient, please explain? While the BG just stands there, not doing anything, their hate skyrockets to 100 in a few seconds and with that he gets 1k+ toughness, 30% parry and 10% block, JUST BY STANDING THERE NOT DOING ANYTHING... so how is an IB even comparable to that with it's slow grudge building??

Also, what racial tactic make them more resilient? The armor tactic that you can't use, because you have no tactic slot for it, because other mandatory tactics take the slot (for example the rage generating tactic lol...)? What other class synergies we have? AoE armor debuff on RP, that is the same value on Zealot BUT with the Zealot one also provides corp debuff as well (so 1 debuff vs 2 debuff on "mirrors", amazing synergy and balance..)

NSKaneda wrote: Fri Aug 13, 2021 5:08 pm Destro have debuff game going on. Order has strong buffs. By design - after all realm of order is defending against destruction attack in desperate last stand...
Also wrong... it was the intention, but armor potions messed up the whole faction balance. Order had advantage on the armor buffing part, which was negated by armor potions in the game for both sides... so order lost it's advantage there. And remember, BG had the only armor buff that stacked on top of armor potions... so destro had order's advantage for a while... Both sides have same armor values now, with destro's ability to triple stack spirit debuff to the faction's main magical damage type... order has no stacking elemental or corp damage type debuffs... so how is this balanced? And then we take a look at armor penetrations and what we see? Knight have a 25% armor pen ability, IB has an armor debuff skill... BG has BOTH... just lol :)
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ashton007
Posts: 380

Re: [IB] Masochistic class?

Post#52 » Fri Aug 13, 2021 7:50 pm

NSKaneda wrote: Fri Aug 13, 2021 5:08 pm You'd think that with 5 years of live development even Mythic would eventually notice that something's not right but...

BGs generate more hate but they spend more hate too.

IBs generate less grudges but have more grudge-generating skills and spend their mechanic points on less skills overall. This + racial tactics make them more resilient (and then we have racial and class synergies that either don't require doubling up on armour debuff or by-pass armour all together).

Destro have debuff game going on. Order has strong buffs. By design - after all realm of order is defending against destruction attack in desperate last stand...
BG can stack crit to get more dmg, wounds debuffing, hate, parry, Etc. It just synergizes with itself so much better, I don’t see why IB having a bit better grudge pump for small fights would be such a big deal or too OP. But also this game isn’t balanced by lore that is silly, it is balanced by the cinematic, obviously.

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Amdus
Posts: 115

Re: [IB] Masochistic class?

Post#53 » Fri Aug 13, 2021 7:51 pm

kmark101 wrote: Fri Aug 13, 2021 5:56 pm
NSKaneda wrote: Fri Aug 13, 2021 5:08 pm BGs generate more hate but they spend more hate too.

IBs generate less grudges but have more grudge-generating skills and spend their mechanic points on less skills overall. This + racial tactics make them more resilient (and then we have racial and class synergies that either don't require doubling up on armour debuff or by-pass armour all together).
How is slow grudge generating makes them more resilient, please explain? While the BG just stands there, not doing anything, their hate skyrockets to 100 in a few seconds and with that he gets 1k+ toughness, 30% parry and 10% block, JUST BY STANDING THERE NOT DOING ANYTHING... so how is an IB even comparable to that with it's slow grudge building??

Also, what racial tactic make them more resilient? The armor tactic that you can't use, because you have no tactic slot for it, because other mandatory tactics take the slot (for example the rage generating tactic lol...)? What other class synergies we have? AoE armor debuff on RP, that is the same value on Zealot BUT with the Zealot one also provides corp debuff as well (so 1 debuff vs 2 debuff on "mirrors", amazing synergy and balance..)

NSKaneda wrote: Fri Aug 13, 2021 5:08 pm Destro have debuff game going on. Order has strong buffs. By design - after all realm of order is defending against destruction attack in desperate last stand...
Also wrong... it was the intention, but armor potions messed up the whole faction balance. Order had advantage on the armor buffing part, which was negated by armor potions in the game for both sides... so order lost it's advantage there. And remember, BG had the only armor buff that stacked on top of armor potions... so destro had order's advantage for a while... Both sides have same armor values now, with destro's ability to triple stack spirit debuff to the faction's main magical damage type... order has no stacking elemental or corp damage type debuffs... so how is this balanced? And then we take a look at armor penetrations and what we see? Knight have a 25% armor pen ability, IB has an armor debuff skill... BG has BOTH... just lol :)
Extremely weak arguments and extremely biased. IB has a tactic that increases the damage by 10% and the parry by 5%, it's simple math: 5%+25%=30% for the IB aswell, with the difference being that IB also gives 25% parry to the oathfriend, while for the BG is 30% only for himself and at max hate. Something that believe it or not, it's never always up because you actually spend a lot of hate attacking, for the IB it is always up and if it goes down you just have to rebuff again.

I could honestly spend 20 minutes of my life explaining to you the obvious bias but I think I pass, must be fun doing PvD everyday and having 1 star IC's on a daily basis, this is an obvious indicator that everything is alright and that order classes need buffs.

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Koha
Posts: 178

Re: [IB] Masochistic class?

Post#54 » Fri Aug 13, 2021 8:27 pm

ashton007 wrote: Thu Aug 12, 2021 6:24 pm
Koha wrote: Tue Aug 10, 2021 8:51 pm Life is made of choices. IB and BG have plenty, and that's great. Just don't put all your abilities in one sequencer.

SM/BO have to make choices at each stance change...

Some skills are not to be used at all : armor buff that does not stack with pots (most tanks, WP and DoK armor prayers...), others are situational. (for saving pots in pve it's ok).

Still IB has a good place : the funnier tank to play on order, perfect balance of dmg and utility, compared to SM and Kotbs that are too much damage or utility oriented.

Grudge HAS to be harder to build => IB earns heavy damage from it and don't spend as much grudge compared to BG (for keeping up the crit tactic for example) + overall less abilities are using grudge.

IB is meant to build and keep grudge high to do damage (it's like getting a train running, long to start but hard to stop), spending grudge is mostly defensive on IB not offensive.

BG needs to produce and spend hate all the time to do the same job and works at the opposite : keep hate high too improve defense not offensive and spend hate to improve offense.

I'm not saying it's harder nor easier just different and should not be mirrored or things shouldbe mirrored both ways and we will end with only one class.
You realize a tanks job even with a 2h is protection first right?? So all a BG has to do to keep its max defenses is stop spending(which it’s already better at building hate), a IB cannot stop spending for defensives... the BG is better at both with 2h AND it doesn’t have to do the awkward/bad TRI-spec.
Not true at all, IB defensive tactic are not grudge based. IB can have his 10 % block full time with no grudge. Oathbound is only 15 grudge, oathstone is free. Only IB damage improves with grudge. As long as you can keep oathbound up with it’s 15 grudge cost, you’re doing better than a BG and you give any ally an amazing buff.
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ashton007
Posts: 380

Re: [IB] Masochistic class?

Post#55 » Sat Aug 14, 2021 12:28 am

Amdus wrote: Fri Aug 13, 2021 7:51 pm
kmark101 wrote: Fri Aug 13, 2021 5:56 pm
NSKaneda wrote: Fri Aug 13, 2021 5:08 pm BGs generate more hate but they spend more hate too.

IBs generate less grudges but have more grudge-generating skills and spend their mechanic points on less skills overall. This + racial tactics make them more resilient (and then we have racial and class synergies that either don't require doubling up on armour debuff or by-pass armour all together).
How is slow grudge generating makes them more resilient, please explain? While the BG just stands there, not doing anything, their hate skyrockets to 100 in a few seconds and with that he gets 1k+ toughness, 30% parry and 10% block, JUST BY STANDING THERE NOT DOING ANYTHING... so how is an IB even comparable to that with it's slow grudge building??

Also, what racial tactic make them more resilient? The armor tactic that you can't use, because you have no tactic slot for it, because other mandatory tactics take the slot (for example the rage generating tactic lol...)? What other class synergies we have? AoE armor debuff on RP, that is the same value on Zealot BUT with the Zealot one also provides corp debuff as well (so 1 debuff vs 2 debuff on "mirrors", amazing synergy and balance..)

NSKaneda wrote: Fri Aug 13, 2021 5:08 pm Destro have debuff game going on. Order has strong buffs. By design - after all realm of order is defending against destruction attack in desperate last stand...
Also wrong... it was the intention, but armor potions messed up the whole faction balance. Order had advantage on the armor buffing part, which was negated by armor potions in the game for both sides... so order lost it's advantage there. And remember, BG had the only armor buff that stacked on top of armor potions... so destro had order's advantage for a while... Both sides have same armor values now, with destro's ability to triple stack spirit debuff to the faction's main magical damage type... order has no stacking elemental or corp damage type debuffs... so how is this balanced? And then we take a look at armor penetrations and what we see? Knight have a 25% armor pen ability, IB has an armor debuff skill... BG has BOTH... just lol :)
Extremely weak arguments and extremely biased. IB has a tactic that increases the damage by 10% and the parry by 5%, it's simple math: 5%+25%=30% for the IB aswell, with the difference being that IB also gives 25% parry to the oathfriend, while for the BG is 30% only for himself and at max hate. Something that believe it or not, it's never always up because you actually spend a lot of hate attacking, for the IB it is always up and if it goes down you just have to rebuff again.

I could honestly spend 20 minutes of my life explaining to you the obvious bias but I think I pass, must be fun doing PvD everyday and having 1 star IC's on a daily basis, this is an obvious indicator that everything is alright and that order classes need buffs.
Population balance does not = faction balance. Destro dominates cities, and I have seen that info directly from the horses mouth, but yeah armor pots weren’t a thing and now they are... and now even 2hBO gets better armor than an IB so remind me again where is the bias? Again I don’t see why asking for better class mechanics is asking too much, you seem quite destro bias.

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Amdus
Posts: 115

Re: [IB] Masochistic class?

Post#56 » Sat Aug 14, 2021 2:01 am

ashton007 wrote: Sat Aug 14, 2021 12:28 am Population balance does not = faction balance. Destro dominates cities, and I have seen that info directly from the horses mouth, but yeah armor pots weren’t a thing and now they are... and now even 2hBO gets better armor than an IB so remind me again where is the bias? Again I don’t see why asking for better class mechanics is asking too much, you seem quite destro bias.
Population balance is always a reflection of what side has the best. People plays humans on the wotlk because they have every man for himself. Here people plays order because they have both better abilities and tactics and are more fun and enjoyable to play since they are versatile. You can easily roll with any of the IB trees and remain useful. BG can only run malice because the other two are hot garbage and nobody wants you, and I don't blame them, the times I have went SnB I'm a htl bot because guess what, SnB BG has 0 utility and 2h BG is only a guard bot+Crimson death spammer. So the fact that you're attempting to compare the both and say that BG is better is just laughable at the very least and infuriating at best. It's simple math, I don't understand where's the hard concept to grasp here. I already gave you a good example and trust me I could go on with a very long list.

Now try again without a "no u!" argument.

And on a side note, since I guess you don't understand this either, there's a big difference between the city result being 4-5 than getting 2 IC's a day for over 5 months. As soon as the city debuff cools off, order is already at the last fort. If you don't see the obvious message that comes with this I guess nothing will make you see. Perhaps when the server hits rock bottom and order gets tired of PvD and you are forced to play destro, you'll realize everything that we have been saying for a very, very, very long time.

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CountTalabecland
Posts: 979

Re: [IB] Masochistic class?

Post#57 » Sat Aug 14, 2021 2:48 am

I play both sides and I have to say, Order is in a terrible state of balance but has the population at the moment. Not a lot else going for it besides WP and Slayer being strong.

IB suffers from poor mobility and one viable build. IDK what Amdus is smoking but IB has one acceptable city build with punishing knock + AP tactic. That said, it is a pretty good class with a lot to bring to grp/oathfriend. So I don't think IB needs a buff, its just not as braindead as knight. What the IB buffs do probably need a rework with all the changes since live but thats about it.

Sure IC gets hit more but who cares so long as you win the instances and get more sov, which destro does overwhelmingly.

Dark Elfs are the strongest faction in the game at the moment. DoK is untouchable, WE has every tool under the sun, Sorc ST burst is the go to scen and city DPS now, and BG has amazing synergy with melee ball. I do not feel bad for BG in the slightest.

Destro classes are generally better than Order and they exist in more balanced numbers. Doing weekend scens on destro is easy mode and on Order you need a premade before you even think about getting one win.
Brynnoth Goldenbeard (40/80) (IB) -- Rundin Fireheart (40/50) (RP) -- Ungrinn (40/40) (Engi)-- Bramm Bloodaxe (40/83) (Slayer) and a few Empire characters here or there, maybe even an elf.

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Fey
Posts: 769

Re: [IB] Masochistic class?

Post#58 » Mon Aug 16, 2021 4:25 am

IB suffers from poor mobility eh? I just can't be bothered to point out why that is incorrect.

But kudos CountTalabecland, someone finally mentions Punishing Knock. Hilarious that several IB posters claim that armor debuff is the only worthwhile debuff that IB has. If you aren't running Punishing Knock you're doing it wrong. And I suppose Kneecapper isn't on your NB corrupted hotbars at all. Yes I'm aware that Soul Killer exists.

Can't be bothered to use a cover curse for your better debuffs can you? Can't be bothered to cover Oathbound or Ancestor's Fury blessings with Stubborn as Stone can you? Can't be bothered to switch Oathfriend to actually build grudge can you?

Bozzax and Koha have done the work here. If you play IB and you don't, I don't know; constantly switch Oathfriend to whoever is being hit to build your grudge, you're just lazy and bad; and you fundamentally don't understand this oldest of classes.

Love the order salty tears. The legion Morale nerfs have hit Destro far harder than Order, and y'all can't be bothered to take advantage of that. Good luck.

Buff, Avenging the Debt to remove all of 2 types of debuffs instead of just movement imparing abilities. Problem solved. No more IB whine threads. (yea right)
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ashton007
Posts: 380

Re: [IB] Masochistic class?

Post#59 » Mon Aug 16, 2021 7:09 am

Fey wrote: Mon Aug 16, 2021 4:25 am IB suffers from poor mobility eh? I just can't be bothered to point out why that is incorrect.

But kudos CountTalabecland, someone finally mentions Punishing Knock. Hilarious that several IB posters claim that armor debuff is the only worthwhile debuff that IB has. If you aren't running Punishing Knock you're doing it wrong. And I suppose Kneecapper isn't on your NB corrupted hotbars at all. Yes I'm aware that Soul Killer exists.

Can't be bothered to use a cover curse for your better debuffs can you? Can't be bothered to cover Oathbound or Ancestor's Fury blessings with Stubborn as Stone can you? Can't be bothered to switch Oathfriend to actually build grudge can you?

Bozzax and Koha have done the work here. If you play IB and you don't, I don't know; constantly switch Oathfriend to whoever is being hit to build your grudge, you're just lazy and bad; and you fundamentally don't understand this oldest of classes.

Love the order salty tears. The legion Morale nerfs have hit Destro far harder than Order, and y'all can't be bothered to take advantage of that. Good luck.

Buff, Avenging the Debt to remove all of 2 types of debuffs instead of just movement imparing abilities. Problem solved. No more IB whine threads. (yea right)
Love when non-IB destro bias players come sticking their nose where it doesn’t belong. Do you have anything actually helpful to add besides more slander? The morale pump buffs to order haven’t changed anything, destro is still dominating city and SC. Order only wins forts because of rdps...

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NSKaneda
Posts: 968

Re: [IB] Masochistic class?

Post#60 » Mon Aug 16, 2021 10:58 am

ashton007 wrote: Mon Aug 16, 2021 7:09 am (...) destro is still dominating city and SC. Order only wins forts because of rdps...

Those occasional #gitgud tossed by GM really paid off :ugeek:
RoR: Burszui SH, Ropopuch SHM<|[]|>Ginnar IB, Vidarr HMR, Runatyr RP ++ REV guild ++
Live: Karak Izor -> Karak Norn - Yarpaen IB, Ginnarr SL, Volundr ENG +Ithilmar's Chosen+
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