IB Question

[detrap]

Please do, please keep derailing a thread that actually had some sort of intelligence in it. Jumping in starting to compare BG with KotBS in a thread about IB as a tank and where it fits, Idk what to say even.

Well what you are saying is wrong, maybe look at the mastery trees for starters.

I've never said anything about ST debuffs, because they are pretty much irrelevant outside of the ST group play, not a single word. Do you think anyone would pick a SnB BG over a SnB BO or Chosen? No you run it in the single target group with a 2h to get the juicy nice stuff, SnB BG is weaker than all other SnB specs except for pushes. Why on earth do you think people stack BO + Chosen and KotBS in premade wbs? Because they're the worst tanks?

How is stacking heal debuffs on multiple healers only for ST play? How is stripping 10% block and parry with an AoE only for ST play? How is having the best punt and 5 second knockdown not useful outside ST play?

[Earthcake]

Well, ofc you amazing IB players always make the right choice at any given time.

But the word "choice" implies that you don't do something, to do something else. While other tanks don't have to make that tradeoff, they can do everything at the same time more or less since they have passive stuff and/or longer duration buffs. KotBS can also choose not to use auras, how would that help them ?

So, the BEST IB players in the world, you obviously, that play perfectly DO NOT produce anything better than any other tank, you may be at 99% of another tank since you are that good. But noobs like me only play IB at about 10% of other tanks since we are so bad...

[Rapzel]

Well what you are saying is wrong, maybe look at the mastery trees for starters.

I've never said anything about ST debuffs, because they are pretty much irrelevant outside of the ST group play, not a single word. Do you think anyone would pick a SnB BG over a SnB BO or Chosen? No you run it in the single target group with a 2h to get the juicy nice stuff, SnB BG is weaker than all other SnB specs except for pushes. Why on earth do you think people stack BO + Chosen and KotBS in premade wbs? Because they're the worst tanks?

How is stacking heal debuffs on multiple healers only for ST play? How is stripping 10% block and parry with an AoE only for ST play? How is having the best punt and 5 second knockdown not useful outside ST play?

Because they're all cleansable? While the auras that the KotBS has is not cleansable? 25% on every healer within 30 feet or 50% on one healer 5 feet infront of you, every gcd, that's cleansable and can be parried (or blocked by a WP )? What would you chose?
Which one sounds stronger?
Yet no one runs the KotBS aura, because it's not a tank job to healdebuff, that's what the DPS in the ST group do.
Try speccing Staggering Impact, see if you win more with it, if it's so overpowered as you say it is, because staggering impact must be OP as hell since it removes dodge and disrupt as well, not only block/parry.
Make your own thread where you can discuss this, please stop derailing.

[kmark101]

There are a few fundamental problem with the IB class as these were discussed plenty of times before in other threads, but let me put together a very brief summary:

- Lots of IB skills are just numerically low in the current meta, there is no problem with the skills themselves it's just their value did not keep up with everything else in the game. For example armor debuff flat value should be increased or turned into %, single target buffs should exceed aura/group buffs (obvious isn't it?), too short uptime values (10s weaponskill buff really?) etc..
- IB dots (along with other quick ticking dots) are doing much lower damage than intended.
- Some IB skills should keep up with recent changes that affects the whole realm: the 25% parry buff was obviously intended to fight guard damage... now that it's not only parry, but dodge/disrupt as well, it would be only logical to add 25% dodge/disrupt to the effect as well to this skill. Along this line.

There is another pretty big difference between BG and IB if you compare them: hatred defines the power of your skills, while grudge also defines your damage too. You receive hatred with simply hitting, but you only receive grudge if you or your oathfriend are being hit. This creates an extremely huge difference between the performance of these two classes in the favor of the BG, since he always does max damage and constantly receives its class resource (it's only up to the player), while the IB starts with tiny damage and it's power increases over time, BUT at the same time it's up to other players (ie. the ones hitting the IB or the oathfriend) to increase the IB's damage and class resource. This is an extremely awkward design choice and I believe the simple reason for it was that the IB class was created as the first class in the game and later on when the devs created the BG have seen these problems and changed the class mechanic accordingly. This could be easily fixed if the IB's Rising Anger tactic could be a built-in mechanic, similar to the BG.

Now if the IB is the worse tank or not? That depends on the situation, but I certainly can say that most people who play IB for the longest time just play it for the look and fashion and not because of some astronomical performance.

[Drozen]

Well, ofc you amazing IB players always make the right choice at any given time.

But the word "choice" implies that you don't do something, to do something else. While other tanks don't have to make that tradeoff, they can do everything at the same time more or less since they have passive stuff and/or longer duration buffs. KotBS can also choose not to use auras, how would that help them ?

So, the BEST IB players in the world, you obviously, that play perfectly DO NOT produce anything better than any other tank, you may be at 99% of another tank since you are that good. But noobs like me only play IB at about 10% of other tanks since we are so bad...

Absolutly not what im saying, or claiming. And playing perfectly is prob never gonna happen, but playing good enough most of the time is prob a good thing to aim for & realistic.. And prob more importent. And I can give you a handfull of awsome ib's you could prob learn alot from instead of being this defensive and absolute in your thinking wich wont help you progress (if you even want that?).

And as said before, one ib alone is not gonna be the best solution neither will a solo kobs be.there is Shortcomings of all tanks on there own. Ib + kobs is a very solid pick in 98% of the time.. Compliment eachother very nicely in a group based game.

And you do seem set in your mindset regarding ib, so i do hope you enjoy another tank more and feel more usefull on it and less frustraited!

[detrap]

I've never said anything about ST debuffs, because they are pretty much irrelevant outside of the ST group play, not a single word. Do you think anyone would pick a SnB BG over a SnB BO or Chosen? No you run it in the single target group with a 2h to get the juicy nice stuff, SnB BG is weaker than all other SnB specs except for pushes. Why on earth do you think people stack BO + Chosen and KotBS in premade wbs? Because they're the worst tanks?

How is stacking heal debuffs on multiple healers only for ST play? How is stripping 10% block and parry with an AoE only for ST play? How is having the best punt and 5 second knockdown not useful outside ST play?

Because they're all cleansable? While the auras that the KotBS has is not cleansable? 25% on every healer within 30 feet or 50% on one healer 5 feet infront of you, every gcd, that's cleansable and can be parried (or blocked by a WP )? What would you chose?
Which one sounds stronger?
Yet no one runs the KotBS aura, because it's not a tank job to healdebuff, that's what the DPS in the ST group do.
Try speccing Staggering Impact, see if you win more with it, if it's so overpowered as you say it is, because staggering impact must be OP as hell since it removes dodge and disrupt as well, not only block/parry.
Make your own thread where you can discuss this, please stop derailing.

If you want to talk on situational environments, mind killer has no cd and can stack 3 times, order dont have access to reduced cooldowns as good as destro have, so cleansing those is harder. Knight heal debuff aura is outgoing and only 30ft, in cities healers are spread. BG/IB debuff is superior. Yes staggering impact is better than the BG's variant, that's why its 13 points in the conquest tree. However that is the tree for 2H spec where BG's have the similar ability as core and it fits perfect with their snb builds. Please stop derailing, you have been doing it from the start. This is a thread about IB's.

[Earthcake]

Well, ofc you amazing IB players always make the right choice at any given time.

But the word "choice" implies that you don't do something, to do something else. While other tanks don't have to make that tradeoff, they can do everything at the same time more or less since they have passive stuff and/or longer duration buffs. KotBS can also choose not to use auras, how would that help them ?

So, the BEST IB players in the world, you obviously, that play perfectly DO NOT produce anything better than any other tank, you may be at 99% of another tank since you are that good. But noobs like me only play IB at about 10% of other tanks since we are so bad...

Absolutly not what im saying, or claiming. And playing perfectly is prob never gonna happen, but playing good enough most of the time is prob a good thing to aim for & realistic.. And prob more importent. And I can give you a handfull of awsome ib's you could prob learn alot from instead of being this defensive and absolute in your thinking wich wont help you progress (if you even want that?).

And as said before, one ib alone is not gonna be the best solution neither will a solo kobs be.there is Shortcomings of all tanks on there own. Ib + kobs is a very solid pick in 98% of the time.. Compliment eachother very nicely in a group based game.

And you do seem set in your mindset regarding ib, so i do hope you enjoy another tank more and feel more usefull on it and less frustraited!

This topic is bothering me because :

Order lacks tanks, MANY of them, and in turn melee DPS, cause who wanna play a melee DPS with no tank around ?
Order tanks (SM and IB at least) are just weaker and that's why not many people play them, why play a weakling when you can play a stronger character ?
IB, due to having to make choices are weaker, if you have to pick between having your legs or your arms, you'll never be as efficient in combat as someone that can keep both at any given time.
Yet, some people claim that IB are fine cause you can make the right choices. Except the right choices still won't make you perform as well as another tank that can do everything at the same time.

In turn, devs think "nah look, this guy says IB are fine, only noobs cannot play IB that's why they whine", and IB stay as they are.
Not many people play them.
Order lack tanks.

This is what frustrates me.
(And before you say "lololol kotbs best tank in the game!", yeah, some months/years ago, not anymore, BO is the best tank at the moment)

[zulnam]

IB is weaker (compared to, i dunno, a magus i guess). Ok. Should we get a single button that applies all our buffs in one go that are not dispellable? Nah, someone would then complain the button GCD is 0.5 seconds longer than "standard".

kmark101 hit the nail on the head: the only changes it needs for now is just a bit of tweaking to ability buff values (not a big deal; not like we need a rework). Someone else also made an interesting point a while back that ST buffs should hold a bit longer to allow IBs for more creative gameplay and I agree with that; but i don't think the lack of longer buffs makes the class broken.

IB's main group utility does not come from our ST buffs, but from Told Ya So!. Using this tactic in accordance with a correct rotation means you are a literal AP battery and will give at least double AP of the knight aura in the same time frame. A good IB in a group with slayers and WLs is a serious force to be reckoned with. This tactic is mandatory when you are in a group play; a point can be made it's mandatory even for 2H 6-man specs.

And now the hot button, the difference some like to go to instantly: Grudge only builds on being hit.

IB has a tactic Rising Anger which gives the IB grudge on hit as well. In a worst case scenario, it's a blocked tactic slot with a mandatory tactic. In the best case scenario, this tactic means you build grudge twice as fast.
RoR is volatile, and switching from best to worst scenario can be faster than you think. Beyond that, I never felt the need to slot Rising Anger in cities or RvR when i was going SnB. Because the reality is there is enough AoE go around for everybody. The only situation when this becomes apparent is basically in scenarios/small-scale, if you or your oathbuddy get ignored. Again, like so many other things: not clearly better, not clearly worse; clearly different.

Beyond all this, IB is a really tanky tank. I can't compare to SM since I didn't play a 40 lvl one, but compared to knight i always find IB surviving a much more fluent experience. Sure, knight has Vigilance, a great ability, but health tends to fluctuate more.

Meanwhile, IB has: Runic Shield (magic absorb), Oathbound (25% parry), Grudge Born Fury (self HoT), Seasoned Veteran (15% dmg reduction on block) and Shield Mastery (10% block, 5% flat dmg reduction).

And I haven't even named the semi-useful buffs, that lose their utility when in certain gear/groups/situations (Stubborn As Stone, Vengeful Strike, Oathbound, Ancestral Inheritance (good when low-geared), Seen It All Before).

It ain't easy to play, I agree. There are a lot of buttons to keybind and a good rotation makes a very big difference. Situational awareness is key and I have lost many fights because I was not using the right ability for the given case. But I've also wiped the floor with a lot of players when my rotation was correct. Like it or not, IB is a good tank that has some group utility (remember, a year ago it had almost none) as well as a strong 2H spec that does not lose all of it's utility (looking at you, SM).

If you want an easier to play yet still viable tank, try Knight. I am not trying to be mean, no one will think less of you (in fact, if you're snb, they'll love it).

[Earthcake]

IB is weaker (compared to, i dunno, a magus i guess). Ok. Should we get a single button that applies all our buffs in one go that are not dispellable? Nah, someone would then complain the button GCD is 0.5 seconds longer than "standard".

kmark101 hit the nail on the head: the only changes it needs for now is just a bit of tweaking to ability buff values (not a big deal; not like we need a rework). Someone else also made an interesting point a while back that ST buffs should hold a bit longer to allow IBs for more creative gameplay and I agree with that; but i don't think the lack of longer buffs makes the class broken.

IB's main group utility does not come from our ST buffs, but from Told Ya So!. Using this tactic in accordance with a correct rotation means you are a literal AP battery and will give at least double AP of the knight aura in the same time frame. A good IB in a group with slayers and WLs is a serious force to be reckoned with. This tactic is mandatory when you are in a group play; a point can be made it's mandatory even for 2H 6-man specs.

And now the hot button, the difference some like to go to instantly: Grudge only builds on being hit.

IB has a tactic Rising Anger which gives the IB grudge on hit as well. In a worst case scenario, it's a blocked tactic slot with a mandatory tactic. In the best case scenario, this tactic means you build grudge twice as fast.
RoR is volatile, and switching from best to worst scenario can be faster than you think. Beyond that, I never felt the need to slot Rising Anger in cities or RvR when i was going SnB. Because the reality is there is enough AoE go around for everybody. The only situation when this becomes apparent is basically in scenarios/small-scale, if you or your oathbuddy get ignored. Again, like so many other things: not clearly better, not clearly worse; clearly different.

Beyond all this, IB is a really tanky tank. I can't compare to SM since I didn't play a 40 lvl one, but compared to knight i always find IB surviving a much more fluent experience. Sure, knight has Vigilance, a great ability, but health tends to fluctuate more.

Meanwhile, IB has: Runic Shield (magic absorb), Oathbound (25% parry), Grudge Born Fury (self HoT), Seasoned Veteran (15% dmg reduction on block) and Shield Mastery (10% block, 5% flat dmg reduction).

And I haven't even named the semi-useful buffs, that lose their utility when in certain gear/groups/situations (Stubborn As Stone, Vengeful Strike, Oathbound, Ancestral Inheritance (good when low-geared), Seen It All Before).

It ain't easy to play, I agree. There are a lot of buttons to keybind and a good rotation makes a very big difference. Situational awareness is key and I have lost many fights because I was not using the right ability for the given case. But I've also wiped the floor with a lot of players when my rotation was correct. Like it or not, IB is a good tank that has some group utility (remember, a year ago it had almost none) as well as a strong 2H spec that does not lose all of it's utility (looking at you, SM).

If you want an easier to play yet still viable tank, try Knight. I am not trying to be mean, no one will think less of you (in fact, if you're snb, they'll love it).

Ok, TYS! mandatory in 2h spec ?
Why do you spec 2h in the 1st place ? To do some dmg, otherwise play SnB it's far better since no utility is tied to 2h for IB.



These are the grudge spending abilities. As you can see only 2 of them actually do dmg when 2h specced. So you are telling me it's mandatory, in 2h spec, to use TYS! which means i can either :
A. Do damage and give zero AP
B. Give AP and do almost zero damage

These two are mutually exclusive so to be on par with other classes, IB would have to output MUCH more during the time they are focusing on one task, but that's not the case. So ofc you'll say einsteingifted players can choose which one to do in any situation, but it doesn't change the fact that you have to stop doing one thing to do the other, which is not the case for other tanks, hence IB is weaker in that sense.


You also talk about TYS! giving TWICE as much as KotBS aura, wow, i'm impressed, except that aura also remove the same amount from the opponents, so twice as much is just exactly the same value as the aura (and the more enemies, the more the aura beats TYS!), that is passive and works even when disabled.
Another problem, this is a realistic rotation to give just a bit more AP than the aura :



Takes 4.6sec/10sec to use, add this to the tanks basics (3.06sec/10sec, you can go read the other post about this) and you are at 7.66sec used per 10sec. Which leaves room for 2 skills to be used IF your total delay or time being disabled is less than 0.04sec/10sec which is HIGHLY unlikely. So you can in fact use ONE skill outside of this. The knight can use 5 in the meantime since we are comparing them, so IB is weaker in that sense. seems that GCD does matter after all


IB problem isn't being hard to play, it's having to sacrifice things to be okayish on other things.
Since i'm pretty sure you gonna prove me wrong on all of this, please do it with actual numbers so i can understand, i'm not gifted enough to understand random words/feelings with nothing backing them up.

[Ysaran]

IB is weaker (compared to, i dunno, a magus i guess). Ok. Should we get a single button that applies all our buffs in one go that are not dispellable? Nah, someone would then complain the button GCD is 0.5 seconds longer than "standard".

kmark101 hit the nail on the head: the only changes it needs for now is just a bit of tweaking to ability buff values (not a big deal; not like we need a rework). Someone else also made an interesting point a while back that ST buffs should hold a bit longer to allow IBs for more creative gameplay and I agree with that; but i don't think the lack of longer buffs makes the class broken.

IB's main group utility does not come from our ST buffs, but from Told Ya So!. Using this tactic in accordance with a correct rotation means you are a literal AP battery and will give at least double AP of the knight aura in the same time frame. A good IB in a group with slayers and WLs is a serious force to be reckoned with. This tactic is mandatory when you are in a group play; a point can be made it's mandatory even for 2H 6-man specs.

And now the hot button, the difference some like to go to instantly: Grudge only builds on being hit.

IB has a tactic Rising Anger which gives the IB grudge on hit as well. In a worst case scenario, it's a blocked tactic slot with a mandatory tactic. In the best case scenario, this tactic means you build grudge twice as fast.
RoR is volatile, and switching from best to worst scenario can be faster than you think. Beyond that, I never felt the need to slot Rising Anger in cities or RvR when i was going SnB. Because the reality is there is enough AoE go around for everybody. The only situation when this becomes apparent is basically in scenarios/small-scale, if you or your oathbuddy get ignored. Again, like so many other things: not clearly better, not clearly worse; clearly different.

Beyond all this, IB is a really tanky tank. I can't compare to SM since I didn't play a 40 lvl one, but compared to knight i always find IB surviving a much more fluent experience. Sure, knight has Vigilance, a great ability, but health tends to fluctuate more.

Meanwhile, IB has: Runic Shield (magic absorb), Oathbound (25% parry), Grudge Born Fury (self HoT), Seasoned Veteran (15% dmg reduction on block) and Shield Mastery (10% block, 5% flat dmg reduction).

And I haven't even named the semi-useful buffs, that lose their utility when in certain gear/groups/situations (Stubborn As Stone, Vengeful Strike, Oathbound, Ancestral Inheritance (good when low-geared), Seen It All Before).

It ain't easy to play, I agree. There are a lot of buttons to keybind and a good rotation makes a very big difference. Situational awareness is key and I have lost many fights because I was not using the right ability for the given case. But I've also wiped the floor with a lot of players when my rotation was correct. Like it or not, IB is a good tank that has some group utility (remember, a year ago it had almost none) as well as a strong 2H spec that does not lose all of it's utility (looking at you, SM).

If you want an easier to play yet still viable tank, try Knight. I am not trying to be mean, no one will think less of you (in fact, if you're snb, they'll love it).

Ok, TYS! mandatory in 2h spec ?
Why do you spec 2h in the 1st place ? To do some dmg, otherwise play SnB it's far better since no utility is tied to 2h for IB.



These are the grudge spending abilities. As you can see only 2 of them actually do dmg when 2h specced. So you are telling me it's mandatory, in 2h spec, to use TYS! which means i can either :
A. Do damage and give zero AP
B. Give AP and do almost zero damage

These two are mutually exclusive so to be on par with other classes, IB would have to output MUCH more during the time they are focusing on one task, but that's not the case. So ofc you'll say einsteingifted players can choose which one to do in any situation, but it doesn't change the fact that you have to stop doing one thing to do the other, which is not the case for other tanks, hence IB is weaker in that sense.


You also talk about TYS! giving TWICE as much as KotBS aura, wow, i'm impressed, except that aura also remove the same amount from the opponents, so twice as much is just exactly the same value as the aura (and the more enemies, the more the aura beats TYS!), that is passive and works even when disabled.
Another problem, this is a realistic rotation to give just a bit more AP than the aura :



Takes 4.6sec/10sec to use, add this to the tanks basics (3.06sec/10sec, you can go read the other post about this) and you are at 7.66sec used per 10sec. Which leaves room for 2 skills to be used IF your total delay or time being disabled is less than 0.04sec/10sec which is HIGHLY unlikely. So you can in fact use ONE skill outside of this. The knight can use 5 in the meantime since we are comparing them, so IB is weaker in that sense. seems that GCD does matter after all


IB problem isn't being hard to play, it's having to sacrifice things to be okayish on other things.
Since i'm pretty sure you gonna prove me wrong on all of this, please do it with actual numbers so i can understand, i'm not gifted enough to understand random words/feelings with nothing backing them up.

link brocken bro, we don't see the images