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IB Question

Ironbreaker, Engineer, Slayer, Runepriest
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Earthcake
Posts: 251

Re: IB Question

Post#51 » Tue Feb 02, 2021 2:41 pm

yeah, was editing it :cry:

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Drozen
Posts: 148

Re: IB Question

Post#52 » Tue Feb 02, 2021 3:38 pm

A honest question, not meant to troll or mock at all Earthcake (So plz dont take it that way) but is this what you spend your time on thinking actually matters ?

if your action takes .1sec longer/more costly etc. compared to other tanks and that is what's holding you (And the IB) back in any way shape or form in comparison to other tanks?

This is nice theorycrafting, I give you that regardless it's you or not who did it. (if correct, no way i will check if it is or not cuz it's not important at all in grand scheam of things) But not at all applicable during gameplay most of it.
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zulnam
Posts: 760

Re: IB Question

Post#53 » Tue Feb 02, 2021 5:40 pm

Earthcake wrote: Tue Feb 02, 2021 2:38 pm
Spoiler:
zulnam wrote: Tue Feb 02, 2021 10:54 am IB is weaker (compared to, i dunno, a magus i guess). Ok. Should we get a single button that applies all our buffs in one go that are not dispellable? Nah, someone would then complain the button GCD is 0.5 seconds longer than "standard".

kmark101 hit the nail on the head: the only changes it needs for now is just a bit of tweaking to ability buff values (not a big deal; not like we need a rework). Someone else also made an interesting point a while back that ST buffs should hold a bit longer to allow IBs for more creative gameplay and I agree with that; but i don't think the lack of longer buffs makes the class broken.

IB's main group utility does not come from our ST buffs, but from Told Ya So!. Using this tactic in accordance with a correct rotation means you are a literal AP battery and will give at least double AP of the knight aura in the same time frame. A good IB in a group with slayers and WLs is a serious force to be reckoned with. This tactic is mandatory when you are in a group play; a point can be made it's mandatory even for 2H 6-man specs.

And now the hot button, the difference some like to go to instantly: Grudge only builds on being hit.

IB has a tactic Rising Anger which gives the IB grudge on hit as well. In a worst case scenario, it's a blocked tactic slot with a mandatory tactic. In the best case scenario, this tactic means you build grudge twice as fast.
RoR is volatile, and switching from best to worst scenario can be faster than you think. Beyond that, I never felt the need to slot Rising Anger in cities or RvR when i was going SnB. Because the reality is there is enough AoE go around for everybody. The only situation when this becomes apparent is basically in scenarios/small-scale, if you or your oathbuddy get ignored. Again, like so many other things: not clearly better, not clearly worse; clearly different.

Beyond all this, IB is a really tanky tank. I can't compare to SM since I didn't play a 40 lvl one, but compared to knight i always find IB surviving a much more fluent experience. Sure, knight has Vigilance, a great ability, but health tends to fluctuate more.

Meanwhile, IB has: Runic Shield (magic absorb), Oathbound (25% parry), Grudge Born Fury (self HoT), Seasoned Veteran (15% dmg reduction on block) and Shield Mastery (10% block, 5% flat dmg reduction).

And I haven't even named the semi-useful buffs, that lose their utility when in certain gear/groups/situations (Stubborn As Stone, Vengeful Strike, Oathbound, Ancestral Inheritance (good when low-geared), Seen It All Before).

It ain't easy to play, I agree. There are a lot of buttons to keybind and a good rotation makes a very big difference. Situational awareness is key and I have lost many fights because I was not using the right ability for the given case. But I've also wiped the floor with a lot of players when my rotation was correct. Like it or not, IB is a good tank that has some group utility (remember, a year ago it had almost none) as well as a strong 2H spec that does not lose all of it's utility (looking at you, SM).

If you want an easier to play yet still viable tank, try Knight. I am not trying to be mean, no one will think less of you (in fact, if you're snb, they'll love it).
Ok, TYS! mandatory in 2h spec ?
Why do you spec 2h in the 1st place ? To do some dmg, otherwise play SnB it's far better since no utility is tied to 2h for IB.

Image

These are the grudge spending abilities. As you can see only 2 of them actually do dmg when 2h specced. So you are telling me it's mandatory, in 2h spec, to use TYS! which means i can either :
A. Do damage and give zero AP
B. Give AP and do almost zero damage

These two are mutually exclusive so to be on par with other classes, IB would have to output MUCH more during the time they are focusing on one task, but that's not the case. So ofc you'll say einsteingifted players can choose which one to do in any situation, but it doesn't change the fact that you have to stop doing one thing to do the other, which is not the case for other tanks, hence IB is weaker in that sense.


You also talk about TYS! giving TWICE as much as KotBS aura, wow, i'm impressed, except that aura also remove the same amount from the opponents, so twice as much is just exactly the same value as the aura (and the more enemies, the more the aura beats TYS!), that is passive and works even when disabled.
Another problem, this is a realistic rotation to give just a bit more AP than the aura :

Image

Takes 4.6sec/10sec to use, add this to the tanks basics (3.06sec/10sec, you can go read the other post about this) and you are at 7.66sec used per 10sec. Which leaves room for 2 skills to be used IF your total delay or time being disabled is less than 0.04sec/10sec which is HIGHLY unlikely. So you can in fact use ONE skill outside of this. The knight can use 5 in the meantime since we are comparing them, so IB is weaker in that sense. seems that GCD does matter after all


IB problem isn't being hard to play, it's having to sacrifice things to be okayish on other things.
Since i'm pretty sure you gonna prove me wrong on all of this, please do it with actual numbers so i can understand, i'm not gifted enough to understand random words/feelings with nothing backing them up.

You're probably right about TYS in 2H, in that while it's still a good group ability to have, it would reduce dps. But again, the situation depends on who you're running with, since this is a team game and even 2H tanks run in small scale sometimes (and you're going that tree after Path of Vengeance anyway if you have BiS, for GnM).

As for the other point, that being that TYS is weaker than Knight aura, no. You literally did the numbers and came out double. Yes, you are blocked in what abilities you can use and yes, rotation rotation rotation, but it's double. Even with a pesky chosen nearby, it's just as much as a knight would make in 10 seconds, while also negating chosen AP aura and, if that wasn't enough to hammer the idea home, in this time you've also:

- ST shield absorb buff / Runic Shield - 30 AP
- ST ini and parry buff (aren't we nice) / Oathbound - 15 AP
- done an aoe (awww) / Shield Sweep - 10 AP
- given our oathfriend crit buff / Ancestor's Fury - 15 AP
- gien them a reistance buff / Stubborn as Stone - 5 AP
- toughness buff (lol buff but putting it here for consistency) / Vengeful Strike - 10 AP
- given them a WS buff / Watch an Learn - 15 AP

(putting all options above, just to make it clear how many options we have)

And once every 20 seconds you can indeed use Grudge Unleashed, one ability, to give 40 AP, and cut your AP rotation in half.

Grudge Unleashed - 40 AP
Runic Shield - 30 AP
Ancestor's Fury - 15 AP

you can now use some of our other plethora of abilities (stone breaker, REA if you feeling AoEy etc etc).

In this time knight can use whatever he wants, 5 abilities, yes; that would be a great advantage, if any of the knight defensive abilities would be worth a damn. Hell, 5 active rotation-viable abilities is everything the knight gets, period: Shield Rush, Shining Blade, Slow, Vicious Slash, Shatter Confidence.
Everything else is situation and/or on long CD's (we're talking 30 seconds here: Perseverance, Shield of the Sun, Vigilance)

Yes, it is ironic that a class with so many abilities is restricted to what it can use in order to be group efficient, while a class that can give group utility by literally doing a /follow has potato abilities, but that's the way it is. And it's not horrible. And even if you break up your rotation sometimes, overall you are giving more AP than knight, covering chosen AP weakness (remember if knight and chosen are both there, with the auras on*, none of them are giving AP; you still are tho)

* AP aura is actually not even in the first tier of useful auras for knight: Toughness, Resistance and Stay Focused!. If there are few casters (or you have 2 knights in a group) then you use AP aura instead of Resistance

With TYS you are a walking battery. Case closed. The only question left is, are you a Duracell or generic Alkaline brand.
SW, Kotbs, IB, Slayer, WP, WL, SM, Mara, SH, BG

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Earthcake
Posts: 251

Re: IB Question

Post#54 » Tue Feb 02, 2021 6:18 pm

Seems you want to ignore half the aura s worth by only comparing the AP gain, well, then ofc you r right, TYS! is indeed stronger than half the aura, i have nothing to say against that, cased closed as you say.

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Drozen
Posts: 148

Re: IB Question

Post#55 » Tue Feb 02, 2021 6:48 pm

You guys do know that Watch & learn (No WS buff to OF btw, only self to my recolection) do trigger from AOE right? so when that's pop'd you have time to potentially fill up your OF ap pool 3x times from that alone while still having Told Ya So helping out the whole groups Ap while spaming away all other grudge stuff (and the tics from Grumble An Mutter in the background giving ap for 30sec)

So yes, in a city fight 24v24 guarding a SL pref... you can easily give basicly him and group none stopp spam of abilites for 10sec plus, wait for W&L cd and go again. Grumble an mutter is slightly longer cd then W&L so will not always be there but still 50% it should be there.
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Ubarad
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Re: IB Question

Post#56 » Thu Feb 04, 2021 10:15 pm

What's are good builds and rotations for the IB?

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Drozen
Posts: 148

Re: IB Question

Post#57 » Fri Feb 05, 2021 1:04 pm

Ubarad wrote: Thu Feb 04, 2021 10:15 pm What's are good builds and rotations for the IB?
A few builds i run;
Orvr smallerscale, running & kiting stuff (For more static WB's swap out Avalanche for TyS)
https://builder.returnofreckoning.com/c ... ,3761,3763

WB's during City, Basicly a Ap/guard-bot enabling your group to perform better.
https://builder.returnofreckoning.com/c ... ,3763,3743

OT in sc's etc, unga bunga stumpy 2h.
https://builder.returnofreckoning.com/c ... ,3763,3742
LoB & Shitters.

Droze - Chosen
Inches - Ironbreaker
Trenwreck - BlackOrc
Vise - Blackguard
Drozez - KoTOPS!
CasperTFS - Marauder
Drozzen - Warriorpriest
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Ubarad
Posts: 3

Re: IB Question

Post#58 » Fri Feb 05, 2021 1:10 pm

Thank you! I just came back to the game from playing the full life cycle of the live version and see things have changed. Things seem much more well balanced now, minus unexpected patch stuff.

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