Stophy22 wrote: ↑Thu Jun 18, 2020 11:22 pm
So, BG player here, I'd say AOE slow is super underrated utility. An aoe heal debuff is kinda overkill so that needs to be rethought.
I'm not saying IB doesn't need any love but I play BG as my main at RR81 currently and I enjoy it as I have a spec for literally any form of content
-aoe slow crimson death for cities
-self heal 4xparry for duels
-no detaunt, hdbuff for healer killing
I'm not saying im perfect but I feel satisfied as a BG main. Now I see a lot of these ironbreaker threads lately and just by looking at your tree in RoR builder you have
-the aoe slow so you have a WB spec. (as well as an aoe KB slow, which if used right can be pretty good - don't chinese hero it up)
-Self healing duel build
The only thing missing is your kinda healer harasser which is tied to SnB on ur KD in mid tree tactic.
Aoe snares are cool, but they aren't good enough to warrant a wb spot. No one on Order brings an IB because they have earthshatter. As far as snares go, there are a lot of options from other Order characters! You have AMs ground snare, the various M2 60% snares, and the kotbs mini snare. So yeah, earthshatter is useful but you are only going to be able to pop it once every 20s and you don't exactly have the best control over who it is going to hit. 1-2 IBs are brought, if any at all are brought, specifically for guarding the most important mdps/Slayer and bolstering them. IBs parry, str, and crit buffs are strong, but most of the time only 2 other players in a 24 person wb will ever see those buffs. Maintaining 100% uptime on 2 other players is extremely difficult and doesn't give you much time to do anything else.
Furious Reprisal + HD can be useful for killing healers, but again you run into a cooldown problem. Your cooldown increaser requires block and is on a 10s cooldown, your HD is on a 5 second cooldown unlike BGs that is spammable. So you might be able to assist in killing a healer, but you are kinda stuck after that.
You don't have monstro rending which is just spammable aoe fluff (makes it look like BG does big dammy in cities) and you don't have Crimson death, which is really good but kinda defined BG's 2hand spec, so to mirror that would be insulting. Combined with wounds debuff it feels nice to believe ur aoe fluff is doing something important.
Now talking out of my ass cause I know jack about IB I don't think that because you lose crimson death it makes it so you aren't viable, still have armor debuff, more dots than BG, 10 second root m1, and a lot of things that I see could be fun to play with. Armor tactic and anti CC tactic makes me drool as well haha.
It seems like ironbreaker has more singletarget abilities that stand out, so if the desire is to have more AOE utility, maybe you're just not using single target utility effectively? Or maybe you actually do need more aoe utility. I honestly can't say but the main point is the fact that you have AOE slow, you should have a spot in any warband because that **** is very good and can make it so the enemy cant position correctly or make it so they have trouble kiting to a desirable location. It's not huge numbers, its not a bunch of DB's but you wouldn't pick a tank to play if you wanted those things, logically.
In cities and RvR, aoe is king. Most of us don't want aoe fluff. We want aoe that provides utility to our group/wb whether that is in the form of a buff or debuff. IBs have less aoe (buff or debuff) than any tank in the game, and because of this, face a similar fate to WH/WE and SW before their buff. In fact we don't have a single aoe debuff (snare doesn't count). Most of our core buffs can be overwritten by our tank brethren or are useless for some other reason. Not to mention Knights and SMs have plentiful aoe buffs and debuffs which pushes IBs further down the totem pole. I've posted this elsewhere, but can pull it here as well:
- As you are probably aware, IB/BG armor buff is not much better/equivalent to a pot (pots which did not exist on Live)
- IBs toughness buff will almost always be worse than Knights toughness aura (if they run it) which effects the entire group
- IBs single target magic bubble is only marginally better (stat wise) than SMs
group magic bubble
- IBs corp buff is really only good for itself for the AA haste (in combination with WaL) and only if there is a caster. Knights resists aura is a million times better
- IBs/BGs critical hit debuff is garbo
- WaL is a great AP feed, but it has a 20s cooldown so it is pretty sporadic. Knights To Glory! can provide a constant feed + debuff.
- Inspiring Attack is another great buff WP + str, but the str part overlaps with ancestors fury...
- We have two aoe buffs, both which require a tactic. Oath of Vengeance (toughness - crap, also the tactic doesn't even work), and Told Ya So! which requires the tippity top echelon of gear to even run without losing most of your important utility. For anyone interested here is the build (you basically need to be wearing 6pc Warlord, and 3pc Sentinel). It is probably the best city build for IBs atm:
https://builder.returnofreckoning.com/c ... ,3752,3742
- Lastly you've got parry and crit buff which are great, but only last 10s. So if you wanted to buff 2 other slayers in your wb, and you manage to pull everything off perfectly, that leaves you with roughly 3-4s before you need to start re-buffing again.
Logic tells me that our single target buffs should be much stronger than others' aoe buffs (auras, blade enchantments, etc.) but that is not the case for whatever reason. Not only that, but those aoe buffs extend double the range of our single target buffs which again is puzzling to me. I personally don't want IBs to have Crimson Death, because I'm not a fan of direct mirroring and IBs are supposed to primarily be buffers (vs. BGs that are debuffers). I also don't think we should have an aoe OHD because that will only further screw over WHs who basically are no longer viable in city wbs since the SW + morale patch. But I also don't think an armor debuff (that will be more like 900-1000), an m1 root that won't be used in cities very often because you are saving for Bellow, and some good single target buffs really make IBs viable over its competition. Ancestral Inheritance is good early game (not so much late game because it is easy to hit the armor cap), and the anti CC tactics are nice for yourself, you just don't have a lot to offer the group.
I don't know what the answer is, but the devs could start by fixing IBs and honestly BGs horrible middle tree. They are essentially pve trees that have not changed since Live... On Live you needed a super tough tank for handling the pve bosses in the city (perfect for IBs and BGs), whereas in RoR city is basically just a large scenario. Most of the stuff in our middle tree is absolute crap, and no one is going to run it. Take Shield Mastery/Shield of the Hated for instance, you have to spend 13 points for a tactic that BOs get for free. How does that make sense xD? Avenging the Debt is another hilarious one... how the hell is a S/B tank supposed to reliably get the killing blow with a specific skill xD?? It is hard enough to get dbs on an S/B tank as is. Then there's Oathstone which has the same mechanic as Elite Training (funny that BGs get a group buff ability and IBs don't), but is extremely expensive and ONLY viable for pve.
So yeah I would agree with others that there are probably other classes in line for a buff before IB/BG, but without a doubt IB is the worst tank for endgame (cities) in the game and could definitely use some help.