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Some Love for my IB (and BG) Homies

Ironbreaker, Engineer, Slayer, Runepriest

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kmark101
Posts: 328

Re: Some Love for my IB (and BG) Homies

Post#11 » Fri Jun 19, 2020 5:15 am

Stophy22 wrote:
Thu Jun 18, 2020 11:22 pm
So, BG player here, I'd say AOE slow is super underrated utility. An aoe heal debuff is kinda overkill so that needs to be rethought.

... lots of cool BG stuffs...

Wish IB would have even half of that stuff.

IB has no turtle-like parry, which is a godlike ability for guard AND small scale.
IB has no "self healing duel build" since the self healing ability is instantly debuffed by every class AND it is high up in the right tree, so you can't get your damage abilities from the left tree if you need to go that high in the right tree. Good on paper, useless in actual builds.
Wounds/Crit debuffs - on Order knight has it.
Armor debuff is typically not that useful anymore, cause its single target with cooldown and nowadays you can't even debuff mdps classes below the armor cap due to the extreme armor creep on high end gear and potions.
The 10s root M1 any tank have it, not sure why its mentioned as IB power.
Armor tactic is great (but again, only for the IB himself, not for his group or wb), cc tactic is fine on other classes, but IB is last in line for knockdowns, not really used by any IB if at all (its great on slayer and RP).

"Spammable fluff" - there is no such thing as fluff, especially in city sieges. All damage matters, all damage adds up, the fights generally take longer. This is a general imbalance in the game that both Chosen and BG does crapload of more damage than Knight/IB (BO and SM more or less equal), which kinda means an extra 1-2 dps class per wb.

The single target abilities supposed to buff the IB and it's oathfriend, but as explained in multiple other threads before, knights auras and potions are making most of these buffs obsolete. For example I buff one guy with +10% crit, you debuff everyone to get critted by 10% more... which one is more useful?

Take at the little differences like Crimson Death: 40ft FRONTAL hit... while knight's Arcing Swing or the IB's Eartshatter/Rune Etched Axe is a point blank AoE... needless to say which one is better to apply, when everyone trying to avoid the blob and the second you get into the middle you are melting...

But just look at a more simple comparison: with Hastened Doom, the BG increases its AA speed whenever he wants... the IB version is only triggered if the IB is hit by a spell... what if there is no spellcaster? Well, tough luck for the IB... while the BG is useful in every situation, the IB is pigeonholed into different specific cases that is totally out of his control. Due to these so many uncertain factors, low numbers and low utlities, the IB is currently not welcommed in any WB, it is light years away from providing the same value as a knight or SM, but its also miles away from its supposedly "mirror" class as well.
Gryyw - Ironbreaker

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Stophy22
Posts: 339

Re: Some Love for my IB (and BG) Homies

Post#12 » Fri Jun 19, 2020 6:22 am

Ah I see now well I won't waste my time but I'll say this, take it or leave it:

-Ib self heal build does exist (Grumble and mutter is the same ability as Bolstering Anger)

-AOE fluff does exist and while aoe damage does add up only when it gets past the heal threshold does it start to matter and BG aoe isn't the ability going past the heal threshold or putting any pressure on a warband haha, its just a means to apply wounds debuff.

-On BG I can reduce armor by 1200+1056=3256. IB can do the exact same. Most Mdps classes sit at around 3400 armor, so I don't get your previous statement.

-10second root on Rock Clutch is not something every tank has, Only IB MARA and WL have that. champ challenge roots you and the enemy in place and does 0 damage. If you can't see the importance of a 10second root without hindering your mobility idk how to help.

-You appear to have the ability to action point pump (Told ya so!) and (Watch and Learn) which imo is pretty awesome utility, as it comes from offense (hitting the opponent and landing crits). I'd consider this on par with Crimson Death because of how ap starved dps classes can get, but that's an opinion. Feel free to have a different one.

-Aoe slow and Aoe slow knock back, big potential there.

Again you can keep beating yourself up and saying you have nothing or you can work with what you have and make it happen. On one side I see iron breakers who complain like this about not having anything and on the other side I see iron breakers who are perfectly content with what they have and are doing things just fine. Maybe ironbreaker isn't the class you want it to be but I feel the same way about BG not being able to do magic damage. I don't whine about it though I just go and play my Chosen.
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mytreds
Posts: 137

Re: Some Love for my IB (and BG) Homies

Post#13 » Fri Jun 19, 2020 7:52 am

Play an IB and a Knight and you’ll see why we think our mirrors are slightly better.

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hammerhead
Posts: 146

Re: Some Love for my IB (and BG) Homies

Post#14 » Fri Jun 19, 2020 9:14 am

Stophy22 wrote:
Fri Jun 19, 2020 6:22 am
-AOE fluff does exist and while aoe damage does add up only when it gets past the heal threshold does it start to matter and BG aoe isn't the ability going past the heal threshold or putting any pressure on a warband haha, its just a means to apply wounds debuff.
I could agree with almost everything except this statement. Suppose that the Chosen and Knight balance each other with their auras (especially since I have nothing to say specifically about them), but Bork can twist -
Changin 'Da Plan / Rock' Ard -> Big Swing -> WAAAAAAAGH! -> Changin 'Da Plan / Follow' me Lead -> Big Swing and continue, just like my SM does a double rotation of Wrath of Hoeth, then the IB can do nothing but EarthShutter once every 20 seconds and AOEing once every 10 seconds to which not a single debuff is attached and which has a near-zero effect in a 24 /24 game. And as the owner of SM, it’s strange for me to see numbers of 350-400K for the city in the SnB build and the same numbers for the 2h IB (and this, in a very successful case, get into the destro pug in the same random team, because to be IB means to be on the "bench" without any hope of getting into the top order city WB). Taking 4 IBs to the city is about the same as taking 4 engineers or 4 SW. You seem to have tanks, but they are so useless that in most cases it’s just an auto defeat.
You can’t compare only the front line separately, but I don’t have a detailed plan of all the abilities of all classes and yet, if you take only BO/BG and SM/IB in aoe mode, it looks like this

minus 10% block
minus 75 - 120 strength
corp debuff
wound debuff
plus 10% crit
slow (and disorient if spaced)

for destruction against and

spirit debuff (for whom? dd AM?)
interrupt
slow
minus 20% dmg (if spaced)

Feel the difference? it’s a question not so much in numbers but how much damage is possible. The only thing that saves is that as a SM, I can still offer 480K+ heal (saw about 600К in 2h, most likely with crit tactics) for the city, which puts the SM in some kind of strange position. I don’t know how BO behaves in this case, whether he gives out comparable numbers or not.
In the very first seconds of the battle, the Destro front line generates such an amount of damage and debuffs that GTDC just looks like a simple mockery.
I do not pretend to be a complete picture and am ready to accept criticism but on the condition that the opponents abandon this mournful song about "it's all in the hands" and l2p issue.
(\|)o0(|/)

BeautfulToad
Posts: 434

Re: Some Love for my IB (and BG) Homies

Post#15 » Fri Jun 19, 2020 9:43 am

IB has an AoE knockback. I really hope that doesn't get taken away because a bunch of salty order tanks who dont play IB want fluffy aoe debuffs, which - if we you are honest - are not that useful. You are far better increasing damage output than thinking you can kill stuff through debuffs. Crowd control is far more important for a tank in largescale pvp, and aoe kbockdown/knockbacks is king.

I'd need to see the maths but I cant image an -80 wounds debuff for 10 seconds matters a whole lot since it is probably less HP than one tick of a sorc/bw aoe spell. Unless the wounds-HP conversion is absolutely massive, it is not going to compare with the net effect of punting 5+ healers in one go.

I *really* hope that powered etchings tactic and that aoe ability stays as it is instead of pretending slight increase/decrease in crit chance on 4 people for a few seconds matters when a small number of magus/engi/sorc/bw are doing 1000s of hp worth of damage per second

jvlosky
Posts: 158

Re: Some Love for my IB (and BG) Homies

Post#16 » Fri Jun 19, 2020 1:48 pm

bump

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Gurf
Posts: 127

Re: Some Love for my IB (and BG) Homies

Post#17 » Fri Jun 19, 2020 2:11 pm

Realistically IB are way down the line for work and buffs compared to many other classes, i wouldn't expect anything any time soon from the Devs

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hammerhead
Posts: 146

Re: Some Love for my IB (and BG) Homies

Post#18 » Fri Jun 19, 2020 2:37 pm

Even more realistic is that among all the classes on the forum asking for improvement here, correct it here, extend this, strengthen it ... only the IB selflessly asks not to touch anything. From which we can conclude that those who choose IB are self-conscious, honest and advocating for a balance players, or that they are Destro players who need their Order alt to push the company and then flip preFort zone. Which in itself says it's a one-way street.
Personally, I don’t care anymore, I have only one damn crest left until the full set and I will suffer a little torment in the oRVR for new weapons and then I will not foot this class from the Altodorf tavern!
(\|)o0(|/)

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kmark101
Posts: 328

Re: Some Love for my IB (and BG) Homies

Post#19 » Fri Jun 19, 2020 4:23 pm

Stophy22 wrote:
Fri Jun 19, 2020 6:22 am
Ah I see now well I won't waste my time but I'll say this, take it or leave it:

-Ib self heal build does exist (Grumble and mutter is the same ability as Bolstering Anger)

-AOE fluff does exist and while aoe damage does add up only when it gets past the heal threshold does it start to matter and BG aoe isn't the ability going past the heal threshold or putting any pressure on a warband haha, its just a means to apply wounds debuff.

-On BG I can reduce armor by 1200+1056=3256. IB can do the exact same. Most Mdps classes sit at around 3400 armor, so I don't get your previous statement.

-10second root on Rock Clutch is not something every tank has, Only IB MARA and WL have that. champ challenge roots you and the enemy in place and does 0 damage. If you can't see the importance of a 10second root without hindering your mobility idk how to help.

-You appear to have the ability to action point pump (Told ya so!) and (Watch and Learn) which imo is pretty awesome utility, as it comes from offense (hitting the opponent and landing crits). I'd consider this on par with Crimson Death because of how ap starved dps classes can get, but that's an opinion. Feel free to have a different one.

-Aoe slow and Aoe slow knock back, big potential there.

Again you can keep beating yourself up and saying you have nothing or you can work with what you have and make it happen. On one side I see iron breakers who complain like this about not having anything and on the other side I see iron breakers who are perfectly content with what they have and are doing things just fine. Maybe ironbreaker isn't the class you want it to be but I feel the same way about BG not being able to do magic damage. I don't whine about it though I just go and play my Chosen.

Again, pls roll an IB and see the astronomical difference.

Reduce armor you have miscalculated it, thats a 2,256 total instead of 3,256 :) Regardless, you just cited M1 root as an awesome ability, then how can I use my M1 to debuff armor at the same time?

Told ya so is a tactic that I think is the most useless crap of the whole game, literally never seen a single IB who slotted it. Besides if you would like to use it, you would need high crit, which is not the domain of the right tree... again, a pretty failed concept, good luck critting with an SnB build where your crit chance is literally 0%. Meanwhile a knight just fires up his AP aura for the whole group on demand...

Watch'n'Learn is great - but it lasts for 10 seconds... I mean wtf really what can you do in 10 seconds, thats like 2 swings with a 2hander...

Also, let me correct your last sentence. IB seems/is fun until you reach the endgame, in high end gear, where suddenly everyone and their grandmother is better than you. It looks great (at least for me) so people like the visuals of the class. It's just extremely underwhelming once you start to compete against organized warbands and high geared characters in small scale. It's just badly designed for this level of gameplay, but you don't see it until you reach it.
Gryyw - Ironbreaker

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Stophy22
Posts: 339

Re: Some Love for my IB (and BG) Homies

Post#20 » Fri Jun 19, 2020 6:16 pm

Spoiler:
kmark101 wrote:
Fri Jun 19, 2020 4:23 pm
Stophy22 wrote:
Fri Jun 19, 2020 6:22 am
Ah I see now well I won't waste my time but I'll say this, take it or leave it:

-Ib self heal build does exist (Grumble and mutter is the same ability as Bolstering Anger)

-AOE fluff does exist and while aoe damage does add up only when it gets past the heal threshold does it start to matter and BG aoe isn't the ability going past the heal threshold or putting any pressure on a warband haha, its just a means to apply wounds debuff.

-On BG I can reduce armor by 1200+1056=3256. IB can do the exact same. Most Mdps classes sit at around 3400 armor, so I don't get your previous statement.

-10second root on Rock Clutch is not something every tank has, Only IB MARA and WL have that. champ challenge roots you and the enemy in place and does 0 damage. If you can't see the importance of a 10second root without hindering your mobility idk how to help.

-You appear to have the ability to action point pump (Told ya so!) and (Watch and Learn) which imo is pretty awesome utility, as it comes from offense (hitting the opponent and landing crits). I'd consider this on par with Crimson Death because of how ap starved dps classes can get, but that's an opinion. Feel free to have a different one.

-Aoe slow and Aoe slow knock back, big potential there.

Again you can keep beating yourself up and saying you have nothing or you can work with what you have and make it happen. On one side I see iron breakers who complain like this about not having anything and on the other side I see iron breakers who are perfectly content with what they have and are doing things just fine. Maybe ironbreaker isn't the class you want it to be but I feel the same way about BG not being able to do magic damage. I don't whine about it though I just go and play my Chosen.

Again, pls roll an IB and see the astronomical difference.

Reduce armor you have miscalculated it, thats a 2,256 total instead of 3,256 :) Regardless, you just cited M1 root as an awesome ability, then how can I use my M1 to debuff armor at the same time?

Told ya so is a tactic that I think is the most useless crap of the whole game, literally never seen a single IB who slotted it. Besides if you would like to use it, you would need high crit, which is not the domain of the right tree... again, a pretty failed concept, good luck critting with an SnB build where your crit chance is literally 0%. Meanwhile a knight just fires up his AP aura for the whole group on demand...

Watch'n'Learn is great - but it lasts for 10 seconds... I mean wtf really what can you do in 10 seconds, thats like 2 swings with a 2hander...

Also, let me correct your last sentence. IB seems/is fun until you reach the endgame, in high end gear, where suddenly everyone and their grandmother is better than you. It looks great (at least for me) so people like the visuals of the class. It's just extremely underwhelming once you start to compete against organized warbands and high geared characters in small scale. It's just badly designed for this level of gameplay, but you don't see it until you reach it.
My bad on the math I was stupid tired last night.

You don't solely rely on tree spec for crit :P https://builder.returnofreckoning.com/c ... ,3742,3763 I'd do something like that with https://builder.returnofreckoning.com/r ... ;0;0;2;0;0 If I was going 2hand and wanted to ap pump my dps so they could make the most of those spining axes.

AP pump on destro is up to Dok and Zealot
Black orc is -5CD decreaser and that's realalistcally his use (whisper winds on SM)
Blackguards AOE slow and crit and wounds is his use, you don't really take more than 1 or 2 into an OpTiMaL CiTy WaRbAnD.
Chosen and knights got aura so aoe fluff debuff on check.

I agree with what the clown man said if thats true how IB can only aoe once every 10 seconds. Rending blade for Chosen is only on a 5 second CD and after WAAAAAAAGH! is popped is free AOE. So the changes I'd offer (instead of an AOE healdebuff) is

-Decrease Rune etched Axe to 5second CD

This gives you the aoe fluff you so desire and pretty good aoe fluff imo (ignore armor by 100% at 100grudges) Also you seem to have the wrong aspect of what a tank does late game. You stick with your respective guardee and keep them alive.
You and that White Lion whose putting out 500k damage in stage 1 is because you can keep his healing level managable and give him the ap he needs to do the big dammy. As well as providing support to his targets with CC and punting away guards but this can get pretty hard in the cluster **** of a city, but what isn't hard is staying with your dps to apply guard and CC (slows, KD) and buffs to him and his assisted target. AOE wounds debuff, crit debuff, and aoe slow are just some extras you can do on BG. Every tank has demo strike and Distracting bellow and challenge which are huge in city. Much huger than aoe crit debuff and wounds debuff. Challenge and m2 shout are huge, and make fights manageable which is what a tank does. A good tank makes a healers job easier.

I'd probably agree with these threads more if I didn't watch this man kick ass for years on this server. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CPYBcZKGDOw Take in mind it was a lower gear cap back then but if he came back im sure he would instill fear in anyone who would face an ironbreaker.

but again maybe this is all hypocritical cause I don't play IB, but applying game knowledge and what I would desire on BG I think you have a pretty good setup with the above spec and point allocation (could differ depending on gear).

Also to answer your question you wouldnt use m1 demo strike at the same time of m1 root. You would just use m1 root and enjoy displacing targets as your teammates roll over them as they cant reposition or have 10 seconds of unblockable attacks. Don't ask silly questions, use that smooth brain!

Edit: in 10 seconds you could use the entire of grudgeborn fury (6 hits) and 5 filler abilities (5 hits) and grudgeborne fury again (4 more hits) for the 2 remaining seconds and come out with 15hits or 375ap not including auto attacks. compare this tooo
zealots who are destros main AP pump (besides dok) and zealots get the whole 1/5 (20%) chance to restore 50ap per ability (not hit) so in 10 seconds you have the chance to get a maximum of 500ap or statistically speaking you can get 1/5 of that 100ap. RNG baybee.
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