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improvements for ironbreaker?

Ironbreaker, Engineer, Slayer, Runepriest

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Gorfhag
Posts: 17

Re: improvements for ironbreaker?

Post#51 » Wed Jun 17, 2020 1:10 pm

I created IB like 2 months back as my alt to WP and WH. It became my main and rarely playing my WP main now and did not touched my WH since.
It is the most fun to play class I ever played in any mmo tbh.
I play 95% of the time ing grp of 3-6 friends currently having full invader gear and s&b spec, complete pve gear and very close to finish my way to off sov set mixed with bloodlord, sentinel and gunbad diamond plus invader two hand weapon.
Currently I cannot complain about my IB. It is really good for small scale, but only since Im playing with friends minmaxing our stats. My friends adjusted their builds, tactics and consumables arount my buffs. Most of IB buff are completelly useless without knowing who is running what potions and since you cannot keep em on whole party it does require much more awarness of your teamates builds and their needs than if you are running with kotbs.
However, in enviroment I play I feel quite powerfull and I hope that with top end gear and 2h spec I will be even more powerfull. Problem I have is that anytime I play out of our ideal and ballanced 2-2-2 I feel like most of my tools start to be completelly useless. For example if i have BW and engi as dps in party there is not much I can offer whan it comes to buffs.
I dont know much about IB in WB simce i rarelly play in WBs. Im pugging solo or with our grp all cities.
Anyway I feel like there is really not much I offer in WB play and especially if it is pug. Since most people dont know what IB can offer to them a there is no time to communicate and make adjustments in order to use all utilities IB can provide.
Anyway I could not care less about IB in WBs since i play almost only small scale. But formsure IB need some tweming especially when it comes to buff variatoins. There are classes which barrerly benefit from IB buffs and also mist of them can be indeed replaced by consumables which most people runing in pug hrps or are replaced by better buffs from other classes.

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Gurf
Posts: 62

Re: improvements for ironbreaker?

Post#52 » Wed Jun 17, 2020 3:54 pm

When they made IB at the start of Live Knights didn't exist, linaments and some of the pots didn't exist, so many of the IB buff skills were useful. But now many of the skiils are effectively useless, they are still a half decent class and can do most of what the other tanks can do but they don't bring half of what they once did to a fight.

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kmark101
Posts: 327

Re: improvements for ironbreaker?

Post#53 » Wed Jun 17, 2020 6:30 pm

Shapechanger wrote:
Wed Jun 17, 2020 8:53 am
Im not actively playing this server, I came here out of curiosity when I heard there was an emulator today...

I can tell you Ironbreakers were never designed to attack AoE originally.

I was the first non-Mythic employee into Alpha testing in the original Warhammer, and the Ironbreaker was the class I was responsible for as Lead (though they weren't official Lead positions like in DAoC, until Live, then we were given a special testing group with access to different devtools to speed up testing), having had a lot of talks with it's designers about the classes design concept and intentions. Much of the class was changed around the feedback I gave early on, although it's strength in stacking DoTs target to target was altered. It was the funnest mechanic with the IB at the time, before I began taking on more classes as Lead.

So I can tell you, than AoE damage was never the focus or concept of the IB. It's nature was to focus on one enemy to oblivion, and to soak up damage meant for it's group. This class was powerfun as all heck given the right setup, and it came out into beta and later live, very well balanced with a clear design purpose. Just work with your setup more to focus on what you do best, rather than trying to succeed out of specialty.


I'm sorry to say but you did an awful job there mate. In a game that is focused on large scale rvr, you guys designed a class that has zero aoe capability? Even it's mirror, the BG has some powerful AoE! I always suspected this class was originally designed by someone who was a PvE player, cause the class is like the perfect sample for a buff WoW PvE tank, with zero utilities and synergies and just focusing on soaking up NPC damage.

Also, focus on one enemy to oblivion, yet the class has only physical damage in an ever growing armor creep? It was extremely obvious from the first second that magical damage types will always overcome physical damage types, unless the scaling of armor penetration can stay the same... yet the IB's arsenal is based on flat values... huge huge design flaw once again.

Here we are trying to correct this and also as the last poster wrote, fix the potion-obsolation issue that this class was hit by the hardest.
Gryyw - Ironbreaker

geezereur
Posts: 375

Re: improvements for ironbreaker?

Post#54 » Wed Jun 17, 2020 9:05 pm

Upgrade some of IBs 10sec buffs to 15 or 20 sec.

Honshu
Banned
Posts: 26

Re: improvements for ironbreaker?

Post#55 » Thu Jun 18, 2020 12:22 am

Random question: Do people with IBs enjoy having to swap Oathfriend targets to get the maximum value out of the class? Or is it more of a pain in the ass for not much gain?

I was recently thinking of starting an IB, which brought me to this thread, and it got me to thinking about the class. I always thought it was thematically odd how an Oathfriend, which kind of seems like a more permanent and unchanging thing thematically, realistically should be frequently switched so the IB can get the most grudge and be able to apply buffs to different targets that need it. I think it would be interesting if IBs were somehow rewarded for sticking to their Oathfriend longer, but gameplaywise I realize that there is more skill expression in having the flexibility to switch targets frequently.

What if buff duration and/or buff potency was linked to how long you've had a target as your Oathfriend? I see people complaining about how the IB action economy has a hard time because of all the swapping they have to do. I think that if an IB was rewarded for picking and sticking (so to speak) with longer buff duration, that would give an avenue to gently buffing the class without demanding overly technical gameplay that the other tanks don't really have to do to the same extent.

For example, Vengeful Strike costs 10 Grudge and boosts your own and an ally's Toughness by 75 for 20 seconds, provided they are within 50ft, according to the career builder. The Knight of the Blazing Sun has his Stand Strong aura that increases his whole *team's* Toughness by 75, on top of reducing enemy's Toughness when he's within 30ft of them. And though I don't have an IB yet of my own to check, I'm fairly confident these buffs don't stack, right?

Assuming that's all true, what if, every 2-4 or somesuch seconds where your Oathfriend was on a target, you gained a buff that increased the potency and the duration of your Oathfriend buffs, up to a limit of, let's say, 4 buff stacks, kind of like Engineers/Magnus' and their pets/turrets, and every time you switched your Oathfriend, your stacks were reset to 0. At 0 stacks, his buff durations should be less than they are now while the potency is about the same, while at 4 stacks, his buff durations should be maybe twice what they are now, while the potency should greatly exceed the potency of Knight auras. To use some actual numbers, Vengeful Strike at 4 stacks of this buff should provide 150 Toughness to both the IB and his Oathfriend, and last for 40 seconds, which allows the IB to really supercharge his Oathfriend over time with tons of buffs without hurting his Grudge and Action economy very much.

This would create an incentive structure to stick to a target like the true bodyguard an IB is supposed to be, and help assuage the action economy issue. My only concern is that this would screw up the skill expression of the class, and reward people too much for not adapting to the battle by swapping targets. And also obviously this would require combing through the Oathfriend buffs a little to ensure things don't get too silly. Still, I think it's a little more thematic and seems to address issues people have been discussing. What do real IB players think of that idea?

TLDR: IB noob here. Oathfriend should give the IB "buff stacks" that increase the potency and duration of his buffs the longer he keeps the same Oathfriend, resetting every time he changes Oathfriend target. This way, you could further flesh out the IB's niche for being the "bodyguard" tank and give him a unique way of contributing that doesn't boil down to "muh AoE." Wat think?

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Martok
Posts: 1071
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Re: improvements for ironbreaker?

Post#56 » Thu Jun 18, 2020 12:23 am

User Edit
Last edited by Martok on Wed Jun 24, 2020 4:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.

romgaard
Posts: 45

Re: improvements for ironbreaker?

Post#57 » Thu Jun 18, 2020 5:21 am

Shapechanger wrote:
Wed Jun 17, 2020 8:53 am
Im not actively playing this server, I came here out of curiosity when I heard there was an emulator today...

I can tell you Ironbreakers were never designed to attack AoE originally.

I was the first non-Mythic employee into Alpha testing in the original Warhammer, and the Ironbreaker was the class I was responsible for as Lead (though they weren't official Lead positions like in DAoC, until Live, then we were given a special testing group with access to different devtools to speed up testing), having had a lot of talks with it's designers about the classes design concept and intentions. Much of the class was changed around the feedback I gave early on, although it's strength in stacking DoTs target to target was altered. It was the funnest mechanic with the IB at the time, before I began taking on more classes as Lead.

So I can tell you, than AoE damage was never the focus or concept of the IB. It's nature was to focus on one enemy to oblivion, and to soak up damage meant for it's group. This class was powerfun as all heck given the right setup, and it came out into beta and later live, very well balanced with a clear design purpose. Just work with your setup more to focus on what you do best, rather than trying to succeed out of specialty.
And...I can tell you that Ironbreakers had the same issues on live. So my bet is that when you playtested the ironbreaker, you did not go into RvR in a warband....otherwise you did a piss poor job...

Foltestik
Posts: 571

Re: improvements for ironbreaker?

Post#58 » Thu Jun 18, 2020 5:27 am

Honshu wrote:
Thu Jun 18, 2020 12:22 am
Random question: Do people with IBs enjoy having to swap Oathfriend targets to get the maximum value out of the class? Or is it more of a pain in the ass for not much gain?

I was recently thinking of starting an IB, which brought me to this thread, and it got me to thinking about the class. I always thought it was thematically odd how an Oathfriend, which kind of seems like a more permanent and unchanging thing thematically, realistically should be frequently switched so the IB can get the most grudge and be able to apply buffs to different targets that need it. I think it would be interesting if IBs were somehow rewarded for sticking to their Oathfriend longer, but gameplaywise I realize that there is more skill expression in having the flexibility to switch targets frequently.

What if buff duration and/or buff potency was linked to how long you've had a target as your Oathfriend? I see people complaining about how the IB action economy has a hard time because of all the swapping they have to do. I think that if an IB was rewarded for picking and sticking (so to speak) with longer buff duration, that would give an avenue to gently buffing the class without demanding overly technical gameplay that the other tanks don't really have to do to the same extent.

For example, Vengeful Strike costs 10 Grudge and boosts your own and an ally's Toughness by 75 for 20 seconds, provided they are within 50ft, according to the career builder. The Knight of the Blazing Sun has his Stand Strong aura that increases his whole *team's* Toughness by 75, on top of reducing enemy's Toughness when he's within 30ft of them. And though I don't have an IB yet of my own to check, I'm fairly confident these buffs don't stack, right?

Assuming that's all true, what if, every 2-4 or somesuch seconds where your Oathfriend was on a target, you gained a buff that increased the potency and the duration of your Oathfriend buffs, up to a limit of, let's say, 4 buff stacks, kind of like Engineers/Magnus' and their pets/turrets, and every time you switched your Oathfriend, your stacks were reset to 0. At 0 stacks, his buff durations should be less than they are now while the potency is about the same, while at 4 stacks, his buff durations should be maybe twice what they are now, while the potency should greatly exceed the potency of Knight auras. To use some actual numbers, Vengeful Strike at 4 stacks of this buff should provide 150 Toughness to both the IB and his Oathfriend, and last for 40 seconds, which allows the IB to really supercharge his Oathfriend over time with tons of buffs without hurting his Grudge and Action economy very much.

This would create an incentive structure to stick to a target like the true bodyguard an IB is supposed to be, and help assuage the action economy issue. My only concern is that this would screw up the skill expression of the class, and reward people too much for not adapting to the battle by swapping targets. And also obviously this would require combing through the Oathfriend buffs a little to ensure things don't get too silly. Still, I think it's a little more thematic and seems to address issues people have been discussing. What do real IB players think of that idea?

TLDR: IB noob here. Oathfriend should give the IB "buff stacks" that increase the potency and duration of his buffs the longer he keeps the same Oathfriend, resetting every time he changes Oathfriend target. This way, you could further flesh out the IB's niche for being the "bodyguard" tank and give him a unique way of contributing that doesn't boil down to "muh AoE." Wat think?
you only want IB for speced buff: crit, parry and magic absorb, the rest are ****

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