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[Engineer] viability endgame?

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Aebel
Posts: 125

[Engineer] viability endgame?

Post#1 » Thu Nov 08, 2018 4:34 am

Hey guys, I see a lot of people saying that order only has 2 viable dps for WB play (Slayer and BW). I would imagine that Engineers have their place in these groups even if it's just for some pressure from their aoe dots or their support abilities, but am I wrong? Are they not brought into much WB play?

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Mystry
Suspended
Posts: 445

Re: [Engineer] viability endgame?

Post#2 » Thu Nov 08, 2018 5:28 am

You're wrong. To greatly simplify it; the amount of aoe healing and cleanses that get spammed in this game is so ridiculous as to make DoT and debuffs largely irrelevant in a WB setting. Only burst really matters.
If you're curious, here is the cookie cutter WB viable classes for each role:
Tank: KoTBS
Melee DPS: Slayer, White Lion
Ranged DPS: Bright Wizard
Healer: All 3 (WP/RP/AM, AM is slightly lower on the totem pole)

Unfortunately, the best tank (KoTBS), melee dps (Slayer), AND ranged dps (BW) also happen to be the least played of their respective roles, by a large margin. This is why Destruction basically owns all WB fights; their classes all have some level of viability (except SH outside of survivability memes), so they can show up with anything and be okay, which Order can't do.

Don't take this to mean that you shouldn't play Engineer. It can be a fun class; but it's completely overshadowed by BW.

Elio
Posts: 51

Re: [Engineer] viability endgame?

Post#3 » Thu Nov 08, 2018 6:05 am

Debbie-downer over here. :roll:

I've played both endgame slayer and endgame WB engi (DPS Tinkerer) and it's a toss up. Since ALL your dots (except signal flare) and grenades are corporeal AoE engi has gotten a lot sexier. When I'm tryhard-ing I can do equal to or better AoE damage than my slayer, and similarly can top/be near top in zone kills.

I run 0/9/13 with Phos. Shells, Magnet, Tracer Rounds, and Lightening Rod. I'm still sub-50 (on the Engi) and FAR from BiS (using a green mainhand still). Gear is Conq gloves/belt/boots and the rest is Beastlord. All Ballistics skill talis. Tactics are Well Oiled, Tracer Rounds, Pierce Defense, and Masterful Aim. Renown is 3 Ballistics Skill, Max D/D, and 2 Ranged Crit.

Moving open field BW/Slayer will probably always be a better choice. The ramp-up-time needed to get engi up to par (~6 stacks) is rough, especially in mobile fights. But you learn to make it work and people learn to be wary of both you and your magnet. And as soon as there is any entrenched fighting you will SHINE. Seeing 4 dots ticking on 7+ people is a sight to behold. Plus AoE knockback is core now, but you're so much more than a utility bot.

You will 100% not have the burst of a BW or Slayer, and you have ~15 more buttons to worry about than they do. Playing an AoE engi well is akin to playing an IB. You have a ton of buttons, and, ontop of that, you have to babysit your turret. It takes some getting used to.

However... AoE DPS engi is sleeper OP in the right situations. It can excel when given the space to do so, and it can be tankier than it should be while running 1100 BS with the flame turret out. Hope this helps some!

*caveat: As long has BW has the 1200 AoE M2 they're going to always be better for serious WB play. With that gone there can be space for a well played DPS Tinkerer engi.

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Glorian
Posts: 4921

Re: [Engineer] viability endgame?

Post#4 » Thu Nov 08, 2018 6:28 am

Elio wrote:
Thu Nov 08, 2018 6:05 am
Debbie-downer over here. :roll:

I've played both endgame slayer and endgame WB engi (DPS Tinkerer) and it's a toss up. Since ALL your dots (except signal flare) and grenades are corporeal AoE engi has gotten a lot sexier. When I'm tryhard-ing I can do equal to or better AoE damage than my slayer, and similarly can top/be near top in zone kills.

I run 0/9/13 with Phos. Shells, Magnet, Tracer Rounds, and Lightening Rod. I'm still sub-50 (on the Engi) and FAR from BiS (using a green mainhand still). Gear is Conq gloves/belt/boots and the rest is Beastlord. All Ballistics skill talis. Tactics are Well Oiled, Tracer Rounds, Pierce Defense, and Masterful Aim. Renown is 3 Ballistics Skill, Max D/D, and 2 Ranged Crit.

Moving open field BW/Slayer will probably always be a better choice. The ramp-up-time needed to get engi up to par (~6 stacks) is rough, especially in mobile fights. But you learn to make it work and people learn to be wary of both you and your magnet. And as soon as there is any entrenched fighting you will SHINE. Seeing 4 dots ticking on 7+ people is a sight to behold. Plus AoE knockback is core now, but you're so much more than a utility bot.

You will 100% not have the burst of a BW or Slayer, and you have ~15 more buttons to worry about than they do. Playing an AoE engi well is akin to playing an IB. You have a ton of buttons, and, ontop of that, you have to babysit your turret. It takes some getting used to.

However... AoE DPS engi is sleeper OP in the right situations. It can excel when given the space to do so, and it can be tankier than it should be while running 1100 BS with the flame turret out. Hope this helps some!

*caveat: As long has BW has the 1200 AoE M2 they're going to always be better for serious WB play. With that gone there can be space for a well played DPS Tinkerer engi.
Summs it up good.
Grenadier and Tinkerer can neglect WS and go full BS and get out a lot of Damage. Still they aren't as bursty as BWs.

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mdillard
Posts: 88

Re: [Engineer] viability endgame?

Post#5 » Sat Dec 29, 2018 2:16 pm

I'm not high RR by any means, but when a BW targets my sorc it's a crap shoot who tries to LOS first.
When an engi targets me, I scramble for LOS.
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Urdeg
Posts: 127

Re: [Engineer] viability endgame?

Post#6 » Sat Dec 29, 2018 2:47 pm

People say a lot of stupid stuff patch to patch as the flavour of the week changes. Engineers are veey good dps, both at ranged and melee ranges. The Thunderers run exclusively sniper specced engineer warbands and its great fun. Try not to listen to blanket statements from people like that, theres 24 classes in the game and even similar classes are not direct mirrors. None of them are useless.
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peterthepan3
Posts: 6509

Re: [Engineer] viability endgame?

Post#7 » Sat Dec 29, 2018 2:50 pm

6-man vs supertryhards? Not really viable (outside of niche punt2snipe2cannonsmash play). The stationary nature allows good groups to exploit your immobility.

WB play vs supertryhards? Maybe 1 for rift, but otherwise - no.

That being said: in current state of game - which lacks competition almost completely - you can excel with the class if you put your mind to it, just as posters above have mentioned.
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Wam
Posts: 777

Re: [Engineer] viability endgame?

Post#8 » Sat Dec 29, 2018 3:57 pm

Aebel wrote:
Thu Nov 08, 2018 4:34 am
Hey guys, I see a lot of people saying that order only has 2 viable dps for WB play (Slayer and BW). I would imagine that Engineers have their place in these groups even if it's just for some pressure from their aoe dots or their support abilities, but am I wrong? Are they not brought into much WB play?
It really depends what you are aiming for as a warband

and by slayer you mean Engi? engi > slayer in large scale, Slayer > engi in Small scale.

viewtopic.php?f=8&t=29364&hilit=wam+pug+order+guide

Engi gets alot of hate from some quarters... but 1-2 even in min-maxed WB is always useful I never under estimate it (obviously stacking them limits options in style a little i.e stationary snipe squad which has pro's and con's) but its a very versatile class, and brings utility that order is badly lacking so it accomodates BW raw damage (and lack of utility) very well.

so people who telling you engi is useless or less than slayer in large scale... are misinformed, only one slayer ever made my healers affraid and he stopped playing long ago and I just adjusted tactics to neutralize him :lol:

A top quality Engi can push a average BW for kills, whilst providing the utility to group.

Slayer needs a team setup built around them, and even then they are still melee, and also many slayer tend to make bad decisions in the heat of combat and over extend (to put pressure on backlines sure) but they get eaten up against anything prepared. Engi won't be a liability like that. Also slayer might need high RR/gears before it becomes more effective too where Engi can be pretty effective with less RR/gear.

I hope that helps you make a better informed decision

Also pug wb's are very RNG, like compo/setup/leader/mentality ... the heals you get is very slow, the guard you get is lucky if you have one, out of postion or dies fast, so with a engi being ranged your survial is going to be alot higher than slayer where you will be deadmeat (see lack of guard/slow heals not a good combo... for a class that needs to get stuck in and take damage to do damage in melee) and order pug wb's are generally easy to route, so using mines smartly can help cover your retreat etc or protect flank... this is very valuable compared to shatter limbs from slayer ... because it will work more smoothly in every kind of fight.
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RuffRyder
Posts: 316
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Re: [Engineer] viability endgame?

Post#9 » Sat Dec 29, 2018 4:21 pm

Since most has already been said here I will add a short summary of my experience maining an Engineer almost exclusively for half a year now.

One major part besides the versatility of the class is its standalone/solo survivability. Where e.g. a Slayer needs his guard, an Engineer needs: A good ranged position.

In large-scale a good Grenadier can add a lot of pressure and AoE, surely harder to manage in open field. With maxed BS and crit combined with your Flame Turret you achieve more pressure than a BW, who can burst harder actually, but hits less enemies.

In Rifleman spec you have a good ST burst, your natural enemies are well-aware Magi/Sorc, positioning/cover and first hit are key in this case.
Most other classes are hardly a problem to deal with.

Don't hesitate to ask me or our other Thunderers about the details here or in Discord.
Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience. (Mark Twain)

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Karast
Posts: 554

Re: [Engineer] viability endgame?

Post#10 » Sat Dec 29, 2018 8:49 pm

As a long time engi I can say this,

You are a great solo'er and a beast in pug warbands. You can do a lot with little support.

For organized WB you are more of a utility support than a true dps, but unlike slayer, or bw you can do that without a guard and without solid heals. With full support you can put up significant kills.

But there is a limit. Order WBs don't really work with multiple engi's. They don't stack like BW's, they don't add to the morale bomb, since M4 is too far away. But 1-2 are vital, and for more than just magnet.

In organized small scale you can be a beast.

In 6man you are junk. It hurts, you lack any mobility and key debuffs. The burst you have is easily interrupt, avoided, or ignored. As long as your enemy keeps moving, or pressures you, you can't do any dps.

If you look at things from only one perspective than you get a different image. Overall engi is a solid class that excels in some areas, does well in others, and lacks in some as well.

But it is fun and viable, and while it has flaws, those flaws are not unique to it.

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