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[DoK] Healing spec guide.

Black Guard, Sorceress, Witch Elf, Disciple of Khaine
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Zxul
Posts: 1359

Re: [DoK] Healing spec guide.

Post#61 » Mon Apr 27, 2020 1:16 pm

jtj5002 wrote: Mon Apr 27, 2020 5:25 am I was only using 2000 base damage as a base point. Feel free to show your own math based on the same baseline.
Sure. 720 toughness = 144 dps reduction (there is also scaling factor of classes for str, not sure if it is used for toughness).
Wl with no ws- 144 dps reduction.
Wl with 50% armor pen- still 144 dps reduction.
With WL -1000 armor debuff- still 144 dps reduction.
Chourak wrote: Mon Apr 27, 2020 9:09 am Ok, so i'am curious, how are your other stats ?
You are tanky, but do you heal ? :mrgreen:
More funny calculations.
Spiritual Refinement 4- 45 renown points total cost- total heal crit added 14%.
Dok has nothing going off heal crit except self absorb- 14% heal crit= 7% more healing for 45 renown points.
Yep I manage to heal just fine with current spec, and even better I actually manage for example to live long enough to get that rez off while having 2 engies and a bw trying to remotely connect to my rear entry from nearby walls.
"Can we play with him, master? He seems so unhappy. Let us help him smile. Please? Or at least let us carve one on his face when he stops screaming."

— Azeila, Alluress of Slaanesh

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jtj5002
Posts: 91

Re: [DoK] Healing spec guide.

Post#62 » Mon Apr 27, 2020 2:46 pm

.double post
Last edited by jtj5002 on Mon Apr 27, 2020 3:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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jtj5002
Posts: 91

Re: [DoK] Healing spec guide.

Post#63 » Mon Apr 27, 2020 2:55 pm

.double double post
Last edited by jtj5002 on Mon Apr 27, 2020 3:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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jtj5002
Posts: 91

Re: [DoK] Healing spec guide.

Post#64 » Mon Apr 27, 2020 2:55 pm

Zxul wrote: Mon Apr 27, 2020 1:16 pm

Sure. 720 toughness = 144 dps reduction (there is also scaling factor of classes for str, not sure if it is used for toughness).
Wl with no ws- 144 dps reduction.
Wl with 50% armor pen- still 144 dps reduction.
With WL -1000 armor debuff- still 144 dps reduction.



More funny calculations.
Spiritual Refinement 4- 45 renown points total cost- total heal crit added 14%.
Dok has nothing going off heal crit except self absorb- 14% heal crit= 7% more healing for 45 renown points.
Yep I manage to heal just fine with current spec, and even better I actually manage for example to live long enough to get that rez off while having 2 engies and a bw trying to remotely connect to my rear entry from nearby walls.
So you are saying toughness, the worst scaling defensive stat in the game is better than armor?
Are you really saying that 192 extra toughness (-38.4 dps) from 8x 24 toughness tali is better than 8x 164 armor tali that almost double your damage reduction from 22% to 42% against a WL with 50% armor pen and -1000 armor?

192 extra toughness will barely give you 100 damage reduction against some of the highest multiplier skill in the game have.
Against the same 2000 base damage 50 % armor pen, -1000 armor and 3000 base armor:
8x 164 armor tali = you take 1127 damage.
8x 24 toughness tali = you take somewhere between 1400-1500 depending on the strength modifier of the skill.
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Zxul
Posts: 1359

Re: [DoK] Healing spec guide.

Post#65 » Mon Apr 27, 2020 10:07 pm

jtj5002 wrote: Mon Apr 27, 2020 2:55 pm So you are saying toughness, the worst scaling defensive stat in the game is better than armor?
Are you really saying that 192 extra toughness (-38.4 dps) from 8x 24 toughness tali is better than 8x 164 armor tali that almost double your damage reduction from 22% to 42% against a WL with 50% armor pen and -1000 armor?

192 extra toughness will barely give you 100 damage reduction against some of the highest multiplier skill in the game have.
Against the same 2000 base damage 50 % armor pen, -1000 armor and 3000 base armor:
8x 164 armor tali = you take 1127 damage.
8x 24 toughness tali = you take somewhere between 1400-1500 depending on the strength modifier of the skill.
First of all lets correct the calculation- what armor actually does- at lvl 40, each 44 armor =1% physical dmg reduction (take your armor value, and do /44 and compare to shown % mitigation to test).

So to take your calculation "3000 x(1-.5 + .1) = 1800 effective armor, which equals to 40.9% damage reduction"- it is wrong, the correct one is 3000/44=68% base mitigation, with 50% armor mitigation = 34% actual dmg reduction.

164 x8= 1312 armor. 1312/44=29.8 % extra mitigation vs physical. Now add 50% armor pen, and its extra 14.9% actual mitigation which you got out of it. 2000 x 14.9%= 298 actual dmg reduction which you will get of those armor talis, in the best possible situation.

Now comes the fun part, which is what that 2000 dmg actually is- which is likely a critted 2h aa hit (highest I been hit by anything else from wls is Cull The Weak- speaking rr80 equipped ones best one so far was 1 k after mitigation). Don't remember the actual formula, but here are some fun factors:
1. Armor mitigates dmg after crit calculation, while toughness before. In other words, vs wl with 50% crit dmg tactic toughness will actually mitigate x2 of its base -dps.
2. Since str contribution/toughness mitigation is also affected by ability's cast time/aa's speed, vs that 2000 aa which is done with lets say 3.6 speed 2h once again toughness will mitigate quite abit more then its base -dps. Don't know the exact formula, but testing on dok 50 str contribution to aa dmg with 2.2 speed weapon compared to 2.7 speed weapon each 0.1 speed added rounds 0.1 scaling. Which translated on a 3.6 speed to total 0.36 scaling- translating that to toughness gives once again quite a bit more mitigation then its base -dps.
"Can we play with him, master? He seems so unhappy. Let us help him smile. Please? Or at least let us carve one on his face when he stops screaming."

— Azeila, Alluress of Slaanesh

jtj5002
Posts: 91

Re: [DoK] Healing spec guide.

Post#66 » Mon Apr 27, 2020 10:47 pm

Zxul wrote: Mon Apr 27, 2020 10:07 pm
jtj5002 wrote: Mon Apr 27, 2020 2:55 pm So you are saying toughness, the worst scaling defensive stat in the game is better than armor?
Are you really saying that 192 extra toughness (-38.4 dps) from 8x 24 toughness tali is better than 8x 164 armor tali that almost double your damage reduction from 22% to 42% against a WL with 50% armor pen and -1000 armor?

192 extra toughness will barely give you 100 damage reduction against some of the highest multiplier skill in the game have.
Against the same 2000 base damage 50 % armor pen, -1000 armor and 3000 base armor:
8x 164 armor tali = you take 1127 damage.
8x 24 toughness tali = you take somewhere between 1400-1500 depending on the strength modifier of the skill.
First of all lets correct the calculation- what armor actually does- at lvl 40, each 44 armor =1% physical dmg reduction (take your armor value, and do /44 and compare to shown % mitigation to test).

So to take your calculation "3000 x(1-.5 + .1) = 1800 effective armor, which equals to 40.9% damage reduction"- it is wrong, the correct one is 3000/44=68% base mitigation, with 50% armor mitigation = 34% actual dmg reduction.

164 x8= 1312 armor. 1312/44=29.8 % extra mitigation vs physical. Now add 50% armor pen, and its extra 14.9% actual mitigation which you got out of it. 2000 x 14.9%= 298 actual dmg reduction which you will get of those armor talis, in the best possible situation.

Now comes the fun part, which is what that 2000 dmg actually is- which is likely a critted 2h aa hit (highest I been hit by anything else from wls is Cull The Weak- speaking rr80 equipped ones best one so far was 1 k after mitigation). Don't remember the actual formula, but here are some fun factors:
1. Armor mitigates dmg after crit calculation, while toughness before. In other words, vs wl with 50% crit dmg tactic toughness will actually mitigate x2 of its base -dps.
2. Since str contribution/toughness mitigation is also affected by ability's cast time/aa's speed, vs that 2000 aa which is done with lets say 3.6 speed 2h once again toughness will mitigate quite abit more then its base -dps. Don't know the exact formula, but testing on dok 50 str contribution to aa dmg with 2.2 speed weapon compared to 2.7 speed weapon each 0.1 speed added rounds 0.1 scaling. Which translated on a 3.6 speed to total 0.36 scaling- translating that to toughness gives once again quite a bit more mitigation then its base -dps.
You are applying armor penetration directly to damage reduction, which is only correct to targets with under 3300 armor / 75% damage reduction (softcap. Every point of armor after 3300 act as an buffer.
For example:
You have 4400 armor which is 100% damage reduction on character sheet, which is 75% in reality with soft cap.
Against an enemy with 0% armor pen, you have a maximum of 75% damage reduction.
Against an enemy with 25% armor pen, you still have 4400*(1-0.25) = 3300 armor left, which still at the soft cap meaning you still have the maxium of 75% damage reduction. Their 25% armor pen did absolutely nothing.
Now take in consideration DoK on Sov should have around ~10% ignore armor pen, it means the enemy would need over 35% armor pen to have any effect on your damage reduction.

Dok in Invader or Sov with a 660 armor pot should be right around the 3300 softcap, meaning any armor tali added after that after as a buffer zone for armor pen.

Now I understand 2000 base damage was a bit much. Even taking it down to 500 it still should be out performing toughness depending on ability multiplier from strength.
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Zxul
Posts: 1359

Re: [DoK] Healing spec guide.

Post#67 » Mon Apr 27, 2020 11:22 pm

jtj5002 wrote: Mon Apr 27, 2020 10:47 pm Against an enemy with 25% armor pen, you still have 4400*(1-0.25) = 3300 armor left, which still at the soft cap meaning you still have the maxium of 75% damage reduction. Their 25% armor pen did absolutely nothing.
Now take in consideration DoK on Sov should have around ~10% ignore armor pen, it means the enemy would need over 35% armor pen to have any effect on your damage reduction.
Say hello to equipped rr80 slayer with 90% armor pen.
jtj5002 wrote: Mon Apr 27, 2020 10:47 pmNow I understand 2000 base damage was a bit much. Even taking it down to 500 it still should be out performing toughness depending on ability multiplier from strength.
500 base dmg, 14.9% mitigation from 164 x8 armor talis vs 50% armor pen, 74.5 total dmg mitigated in best possible scenario.

192 x8= 192 toughness. 38.4 less dps in worst possible scenario, 76.8 vs crit from mdps, and something close from even noncrit 2h aa hits.

Now lets go to actual scenarios. What you will actually be hit by as dok is:
-bw (armor- 0% mitigation, toughness works just fine)
-engi (armor- 0% mitigation vs corp and back to wl situation vs armor pen from ws+25% armor ignore, toughness works just fine)
-slayer (armor- with 90% armor pen might as well be 0%, toughness works just fine)
-am (armor- 0% mitigation, toughness works just fine)
-wl (see above)
-wh (armor- 0% mitigation vs wh base attack, toughness works just fine)
-occasional dps sm (say hello to Ether Dance crapping all over armor, toughness works just fine)

See the picture?
"Can we play with him, master? He seems so unhappy. Let us help him smile. Please? Or at least let us carve one on his face when he stops screaming."

— Azeila, Alluress of Slaanesh

jtj5002
Posts: 91

Re: [DoK] Healing spec guide.

Post#68 » Mon Apr 27, 2020 11:47 pm

Zxul wrote: Mon Apr 27, 2020 11:22 pm
jtj5002 wrote: Mon Apr 27, 2020 10:47 pm Against an enemy with 25% armor pen, you still have 4400*(1-0.25) = 3300 armor left, which still at the soft cap meaning you still have the maxium of 75% damage reduction. Their 25% armor pen did absolutely nothing.
Now take in consideration DoK on Sov should have around ~10% ignore armor pen, it means the enemy would need over 35% armor pen to have any effect on your damage reduction.
Say hello to equipped rr80 slayer with 90% armor pen.
jtj5002 wrote: Mon Apr 27, 2020 10:47 pmNow I understand 2000 base damage was a bit much. Even taking it down to 500 it still should be out performing toughness depending on ability multiplier from strength.
500 base dmg, 14.9% mitigation from 164 x8 armor talis vs 50% armor pen, 74.5 total dmg mitigated in best possible scenario.

192 x8= 192 toughness. 38.4 less dps in worst possible scenario, 76.8 vs crit from mdps, and something close from even noncrit 2h aa hits.

Now lets go to actual scenarios. What you will actually be hit by as dok is:
-bw (armor- 0% mitigation, toughness works just fine)
-engi (armor- 0% mitigation vs corp and back to wl situation vs armor pen from ws+25% armor ignore, toughness works just fine)
-slayer (armor- with 90% armor pen might as well be 0%, toughness works just fine)
-am (armor- 0% mitigation, toughness works just fine)
-wl (see above)
-wh (armor- 0% mitigation vs wh base attack, toughness works just fine)
-occasional dps sm (say hello to Ether Dance crapping all over armor, toughness works just fine)

See the picture?
I see your point just fine. I simply do not agree on the minuscule effect of -38.4 dps from 192 toughness.
Only 2 things have a realistic chance of killing you in cities with almost everyone in full sov. Morale bombs and Melee train. Wound and good positioning survives moral bombs, and I have been trained on by quite a few BiS or close to BiS WLs to know that my setup will maintain at least 35-50% damage reduction against them. My setup works great in my WB comp and strats, and if yours works great in yours, then its great.
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Zxul
Posts: 1359

Re: [DoK] Healing spec guide.

Post#69 » Sat May 02, 2020 12:49 am

jtj5002 wrote: Mon Apr 27, 2020 11:47 pm I see your point just fine. I simply do not agree on the minuscule effect of -38.4 dps from 192 toughness.
Only 2 things have a realistic chance of killing you in cities with almost everyone in full sov. Morale bombs and Melee train. Wound and good positioning survives moral bombs, and I have been trained on by quite a few BiS or close to BiS WLs to know that my setup will maintain at least 35-50% damage reduction against them. My setup works great in my WB comp and strats, and if yours works great in yours, then its great.
Testing new dok spec, 843 toughness:

Image
"Can we play with him, master? He seems so unhappy. Let us help him smile. Please? Or at least let us carve one on his face when he stops screaming."

— Azeila, Alluress of Slaanesh

jtj5002
Posts: 91

Re: [DoK] Healing spec guide.

Post#70 » Sat May 02, 2020 4:39 pm

Went ahead and found the WL you tested against. Honestly it looks like your base ~3000 armor + pot is doing most of the work there.

4.3k armor 11% ignore armor pen (360 tough) against the same WL

Image
Last edited by jtj5002 on Sun May 03, 2020 2:38 am, edited 1 time in total.
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