Recent Topics

Ads

How come Zealot damage is so miserable?

Chosen, Magus, Marauder, Zealot
Forum rules
Before posting on this forum, be sure to read the Terms of Use
Your topic MUST start with your class name between hooks (IE : [Shaman] blablabla)
User avatar
Nickalispicalis
Posts: 68

How come Zealot damage is so miserable?

Post#1 » Fri May 26, 2023 7:49 pm

Yes, I understand it is healing class and that is what I do 99% of the time. But that 1% of the time... It is just pathetic. Why? Shaman, DOK, Archmage, Warrior Priest all has decent damage.

I could understand sacrificing the damage if you were twice the healer of any other class, but you are not.

Ads
User avatar
tazdingo
Posts: 1199

Re: How come Zealot damage is so miserable?

Post#2 » Fri May 26, 2023 9:39 pm

best st healing in the game. if zeal/rp could do anything resembling real damage it would be a genuine 1v1 autowin vs literally anything in any spec. toggle is for additional strikethrough for your stagger/debuffs

User avatar
Phantasm
Posts: 676

Re: How come Zealot damage is so miserable?

Post#3 » Fri May 26, 2023 9:43 pm

Im not expert on topic but if you look at Zeal/RP trees they are total mess.

Zealot trees

Rune Priest trees

Healing skills and tactics mix up with offensive without real clarification as other classes have - one heal tree, one offensive and one supporting. Because of that spaghetti mess its really hard to maintain healing potential without crippling dps aspect and vice versa.
Zeal (no sure if RP too) had some niche bombing/debuffing role in RvR in Live WAR, but with shift of balancing devs did few years ago made it non-existent. Later there was no dev willing to pick up offensive aspect of Zeal and we have what we have.

User avatar
Omegus
Posts: 1373

Re: How come Zealot damage is so miserable?

Post#4 » Fri May 26, 2023 11:55 pm

Nickalispicalis wrote: Fri May 26, 2023 7:49 pm Yes, I understand it is healing class and that is what I do 99% of the time. But that 1% of the time... It is just pathetic. Why? Shaman, DOK, Archmage, Warrior Priest all has decent damage.

I could understand sacrificing the damage if you were twice the healer of any other class, but you are not.
The simple answer: over 14 years of neglect from Mythic and the RoR devs, and when I include the RoR devs I'm not referring to the past 18 months or so where everything has been on hold, but the time before that when whoever was managing balance chose not to really look at either the Zealot and RP for whatever reason (Storm of Ravens and its mirror got a snare added, and I'm pretty sure the RP getting it was a bug as the Zealot was supposed to be mirroring the BW's channelled snare), but time was still found by Mythic and the ROR devs to nerf or just outright remove some of the rare good things the class had.

IIRC it was 2020 where DPS Zealot was the leading contender for the most nerfed spec for a lot of that year which is f**king hilarious.
tazdingo wrote: Fri May 26, 2023 9:39 pm best st healing in the game. if zeal/rp could do anything resembling real damage it would be a genuine 1v1 autowin vs literally anything in any spec. toggle is for additional strikethrough for your stagger/debuffs
Healers win 1v1s anyway due to having damage and sustain, and the Shaman/Archmage toolkit is far better focused for healing and fighting at the same time. The Zealot's healing boost (which also affects other healers...) requires them to crit, and Zealots do not do crit healing and crit damage at the same time. Such a build would require you to dump renown points into heal crit in order to still crit while Harbinger is on.

As for "best st healing", due to the sheer number of HoTs and triage-healing options I would still put the Archmage/Shaman ahead of the Zealot for both combat healing and pure ST healing. The reason for the RP/Zealot in the party is to amplify the healing from the other healer, provide AP/absorbs/cc and secondary healing. It does that job very well.
Phantasm wrote: Fri May 26, 2023 9:43 pm Im not expert on topic but if you look at Zeal/RP trees they are total mess.

Zealot trees

Rune Priest trees

Healing skills and tactics mix up with offensive without real clarification as other classes have - one heal tree, one offensive and one supporting. Because of that spaghetti mess its really hard to maintain healing potential without crippling dps aspect and vice versa.
Zeal (no sure if RP too) had some niche bombing/debuffing role in RvR in Live WAR, but with shift of balancing devs did few years ago made it non-existent. Later there was no dev willing to pick up offensive aspect of Zeal and we have what we have.
The trees were designed to be different and mirror how the magic DPS classes worked, ironic considering how poor the damage ended up being. One tree is for single-target instant, one tree for single-target long duration, one tree for AOE, much like the BW and Sorc. Shoving all of the Zealot's damage skills into one tree won't make them any better, as I can put 13-15 points into a mastery path now and the damage skills in that path are still mostly ****. There are some tactics in the paths that affect all skills which should probably be core (for that reason), but even then cherry picking everything won't make the damage better.
Zomega: RR8x Zealot

User avatar
Valfaros
Posts: 258

Re: How come Zealot damage is so miserable?

Post#5 » Sat May 27, 2023 1:13 am

The skill trees are quite odd, and as omegus pointed out we have st, dot/hot and aoe. So as dps you kinda want all skills which all are all doing relativly low dps.

The removal of the aoe hd kinda made aoe zealot (left/right) in rvr useless as the dmg is just poor in comparision. Aoe zealot (mid/right) that aims for more utility by taking transference would be an alternative but once again the abilites do poor damage or have long cooldowns hence you don't really get much utility out of the spec. Also the application of the corp debuff is pitiful. The attack is really weird, takes forever due to a very slow precast and sometimes doesn't hit targets right infront of you. Usually jumping helps but could just be me...

For small scale the st/dot spec does work okaish but as soon as you face a "serious" group that properly guards it's targets your lack of burst can be a hinderance to your team to get anything done. That said I did have quite some fun in 1-3-2 setups but you have to either bring a BO with waaaagh, hope for low resistances on the enemy team or go in a corner and cry that your spec can't deal with high resistances besides using m1.
After lack of burst, dealing with high resitances is one of the main problems I have with the (left/mid) st spec. Taking the debuff tactic sadly doesn't help you as you want to be kiting and not walking up close.

As for the spells:

SoR hits terrible and if you don't need the slow you are best of with only using the first tick cause that thing hits for less than scourge...why no idea. Also the slow doesn't seem to linger like it does for the bw? Why?

MoM is an absolute joke never worth skilling instead of the stagger. Dmg is low, casts for 2s, can be dispelled, can be disrupted, has only a 10s duration while also having a 10s cooldown. Potentially it should further reduce healing but zealo doesn't really have cover dots so usually it will just get dispelled quickly or ignored since it doesn't do much dmg. Yeah that one is just bad. You'd be better off in just keeping your "dmg" up.

Stagger: Most valuable skill the spec has and as dps it actually hits

BoT: Quite nice, dmg could be better but sadly as emegency utility too slow.

CA: Low dmg, very long cd, for the aoe only skill you can do on range quite sad

WoI: I really don't know what to think about this one. Always felt fun but kinda bad to use. Maybe should be a buff to yourself while you can do other things (and move?) when under the harbinger (because heal + this would be broken).


As someone who plays it for **** and giggles I would say the ST spec is already not terrible for 1v1 or ganking groups. Everything else ... meh. The nerfs to buffed skills and aoe hd didn't really help dps zealo. I was rather sure the build would be getting buffs while I was gone for years. Quite surprised the devs had other plans. Yeah I'm actually using the buffed skills and they used to be kinda fun to use against 100% disrupt stuff but somehow that was not okay for a 1 min cd skill. Okay then...

User avatar
Sinisterror
Posts: 838

Re: How come Zealot damage is so miserable?

Post#6 » Sat May 27, 2023 1:20 am

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qPw6K_MGEXY Dps Zealot in its prime was great! Bring back Patch 1.3.5. Harbinger+Transference. Btw i dont remember did RP always have Heal to dps convert and vice versa ability, or did they have something like Zealot's Harbinger? Why was it removed, if someone knows im interested.
"To clarify, me asking to developers to go test their own changes is not sign of toxicity or anger, but a sign of hope that the people punching in the numbers remain aware of potential consequences and test their own changes"-Teefz

User avatar
Omegus
Posts: 1373

Re: How come Zealot damage is so miserable?

Post#7 » Sat May 27, 2023 10:59 am

Valfaros wrote: Sat May 27, 2023 1:13 am. Also the application of the corp debuff is pitiful. The attack is really weird, takes forever due to a very slow precast and sometimes doesn't hit targets right infront of you. Usually jumping helps but could just be me...
On ROR that skill has a very narrow cone of fire compared to what it should've been which is why actually hitting people with it is very difficult.
SoR hits terrible and if you don't need the slow you are best of with only using the first tick cause that thing hits for less than scourge...why no idea. Also the slow doesn't seem to linger like it does for the bw? Why?
SoR's damage is bugged. It was supposed to hit 4 times over 6 seconds with high damage per tick, while the RP version hit 7 times over 6 seconds with low damage per tick. Currently the Zealot one hits 4 times over 6 seconds but with the incorrect low damage close to the RP version.
MoM is an absolute joke never worth skilling instead of the stagger. Dmg is low, casts for 2s, can be dispelled, can be disrupted, has only a 10s duration while also having a 10s cooldown. Potentially it should further reduce healing but zealo doesn't really have cover dots so usually it will just get dispelled quickly or ignored since it doesn't do much dmg. Yeah that one is just bad. You'd be better off in just keeping your "dmg" up.
MoM is one of those spells that will either be completely busted or useless with no middle ground. Combined with heal debuffs it can pretty much switch off the healing a target receives. It's really good at helping to kill other healers who have in/out debuffs applied, as the damage it will do at that point pretty much accounts for the healing received. Biggest hinderance to this skill being used is the absorb tactic in the right tree and the stagger in left so going up the middle tree is less desired.
Stagger: Most valuable skill the spec has and as dps it actually hits
It's an offensive skill, but it is not a DPS spec skill as the rest of your damage breaks the stagger...
BoT: Quite nice, dmg could be better but sadly as emegency utility too slow.
CA: Low dmg, very long cd, for the aoe only skill you can do on range quite sad
What? Chaotic Agitation does surprisingly good damage as it escaped the worst of the AOE nerfs on live. It's also only on a 13s cooldown for a 6s AOE channel which seems fine. Was even better when it could proc the AOE heal debuff, but most things were better. It does more damage then Storm of Ravens as well due to the buggy state of SoR.
Zomega: RR8x Zealot

Zxul
Posts: 1359

Re: How come Zealot damage is so miserable?

Post#8 » Sat May 27, 2023 12:00 pm

What other have posted. Zealot dps skills just have too low dmg, even if you try and max intel. In addition, all zealot specific dps tactics have some problem which prevents them from being effective:

Scourged Warping- looks good on paper, practically its too low chance to go off in any situation where you will actually try to do dps. And when it does, gcd means all it does is turn 2 sec Scourge into 1.5 sec Scourge. For extra bonus, too low dmg on Scourge for a 2 sec cast skill.

Waves of Chaos- 10 ft radius, unless opponent stands on top of glowing mark (from back when marks weren't bugged and actually showed up), it will do no dmg. And even when it does dmg, its just way too low- 150 per tick before resists. A single magis/engi aoe dot does x2 to x3 dmg even for a toughness magus, and doesn't has a 30 sec cd (not to mention, those do not take tactic slots).

Sweeping Disgorgement- as other have mentioned, too narrow cone to reliably hit things.

Chaotic Force- affects only 2 skills, which have too low dmg.

Swirling Vortex- increases the range of your 60 sec cd aoe from 30 ft to 30 ft...

Manipulation- for the extra lol, it does a physival dmg as well.
"Can we play with him, master? He seems so unhappy. Let us help him smile. Please? Or at least let us carve one on his face when he stops screaming."

— Azeila, Alluress of Slaanesh

Ads
User avatar
Nickalispicalis
Posts: 68

Re: How come Zealot damage is so miserable?

Post#9 » Sat May 27, 2023 4:05 pm

Thank you for the all responses. This is one of the reasons why I quit WH. The class was broken and they seemed to have no incentive to fix it.

Out of curiosity, since the private server went live has there been any class changes at all? Not just to Zealot, but any class?

User avatar
vanbuinen77
Posts: 222

Re: How come Zealot damage is so miserable?

Post#10 » Sat May 27, 2023 9:14 pm

tazdingo wrote: Fri May 26, 2023 9:39 pm best st healing in the game. if zeal/rp could do anything resembling real damage it would be a genuine 1v1 autowin vs literally anything in any spec. toggle is for additional strikethrough for your stagger/debuffs
Almost sounds like am/shaman
Malificatium-Magus
Malificatiiium-Chosen
Malificatiium-Shaman

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 8 guests