[Marauder] Pure Bruteburst

[Foofmonger]

Regardless, I'm guessing you are implying that "my opinion is wrong". Do you want to elaborate on why you think that is and have a discussion?

and

I also would like to know what you are implying here...and instead of being passive aggressive we could stick together "as a class" and try to learn from each other?

Sure. But all of this is about 6v6

the AoE KD (which can be used a fight reset to remove basically all pressure, and/or chain interrupts on healers)

Horrible mistake. 6v6 is always game of controls and coordination(there is no room for random control abilites and tiny room for aoe punt in special setups and conditions) and performing laughable AoE(!) 2 sec kd is nothing more than free immune to involved, especially when you facing dwarfs with SoS tactic

the ability to fight in Monstro without super piss-poor damage (important for fighting Slayers)

It is piss-poor damage vs strong enemies, any damage which can be tanked without detaunt is piss-poor

far better then "the same debuffs that your other group members have that don't stack".

Wrong. Your party need all AD they can get. Because 2nd tank(with AD) can be busy far away(saving party healer when his 2mdps+1st tank trying to kill enemy healer or punted) or his AD been parried by enemy or on cd(also inc cd after slayer's SL used) after fast switch

The one thing a Marauder can do that the other DPS classes in your comp can't, is to be able to tank multiple slayers/wls/whs/asws and survive where other DPS would fall.

Wrong. Of course it is tankier any other mdps when GoM is active, but here are the problems:
1)slayer's pressure is AoE and even worse, sometimes undefendable, so fast switch(with morale drop) can be used to kill mara
2)"typical" kill scenario is to punt guarding tank, kd 2nd tank, kd mara (before he used detaunt and GoM activation) do enuf raw damage, finish with morales (slayers able to ignore 2400 morale drop handicap due m2 DD combined with any other instant order damage morales aviable at moment)
3)smart dudes always touch their enemies, so if mara too sturdy(not full possible dps - kinda high armour(w/o bloodlord wepp, only sov/wl, high wounds pool), using Deadly Clutch) dudes will abuse only the squishiest targets they found - main dps, 2nd healer and maybe(maybe) ezpz DpS TaNk. This is worst scenario for party, because enemies just ignore sturdy mara, focusing "prime squishy"/main dps and party will be unable do pressure back, since saves were used all the time.

Other DPS can't bring an AoE WS/ini debuff.

Yea, so what? It is good, but not enuf to invest for it.

Other DPS can't bring an AoE KD that you can use to save a healer/dps who is about to get focused down, etc... This is the "unique" value that they currently bring, and more or less requires Brut/Monstro spec.

Already commented this.

Good post and thanks for your clarification. So it looks like we have a slight difference of opinion overall, but I don't disagree with most of your major points.

I do think you are underrating the AoE KD, using it improperly and handing out free immunities is of course, bad, but timing it properly and using it can be good. It's all in the practical application. It's not used to burst targets down like a ST KD, and it's a defensive tool for your team. It's used to save someone on your team from death, as a "oh ****" button, and it can be used to snipe an extra interrupt on casted heales/rezzes on healers who aren't in the blob. Sure, it's bad when used improperly, but when you use it to save your other DPS who was at 5% hp and they get healed to full because of it, then you know that the immunities you handed out weren't "free", the opportunity cost of the immunities in this situation is "not having your dps die".

AD point is solid, and the Mara AD being undefendable is strong, I agree with this concept.

Per the "piss poor" damage line. You are highlighting my point. Either way, as a Marauder you will be forced to go into Monstro at points to survive focus. A Sav/Brut Marauder will just do nothing in Monstro, whereas in Brut/Monstro, you can keep up a little more pressure. The damage is still "piss poor", but it's not "as piss poor" as if you have 0 points in the Monstro path (that being said, Flail spam does have very very high tooltip damage, the main issue is of course that piercing bite doesn't effect Flail, so it tends to be less effective damage on most targets (but, if you are flail spamming an armor debuffed slayer with 9 points in monstro, the damage is at the very least "not ass".)

That's really just about all we disagree on, as the rest is pretty standard (for instance, you go into tanky builds which is just kinda offtopic, going Brut/Monstro has nothing to do with what gear you are wearing).

What your argument doesn't do is convince me that Sav is worth it outside of AD which is also my current feeling to begin with (as I mentioned in an earlier post). This spec is just so reliant on this singular ability to have any purpose.

[palindrom]

I do think you are underrating the AoE KD, using it improperly and handing out free immunities is of course, bad, but timing it properly and using it can be good. It's all in the practical application. It's not used to burst targets down like a ST KD, and it's a defensive tool for your team. It's used to save someone on your team from death, as a "oh ****" button, and it can be used to snipe an extra interrupt on casted heales/rezzes on healers who aren't in the blob. Sure, it's bad when used improperly, but when you use it to save your other DPS who was at 5% hp and they get healed to full because of it, then you know that the immunities you handed out weren't "free", the opportunity cost of the immunities in this situation is "not having your dps die".

I do think you just dont know what you talking about.
1. Mara already have AoE range cast interrupt ability, combined with 2 tanks(taunts, punt, kd, interrupt) and main dps(kd at least) its more than enuf, since last healer will be focused immidiately, 2 active healers will res it 100% or enemies go full def and wait when dude come back from wc. AoE kd is useless for that purpose.
2. When you trying to save someone with 5% hp, that means enemies already got their immunity by your tanks(also zealot|WE stagger and main dps kd) were trying to save it / were assisting dps with killing enemy dps/healer. Or whatever they were doing all this time then? So you saying the mystic opportunity so save 5% hp partymember is worth investing into Monstro for AoE kd?

A Sav/Brut Marauder will just do nothing in Monstro, whereas in Brut/Monstro, you can keep up a little more pressure. The damage is still "piss poor", but it's not "as piss poor" as if you have 0 points in the Monstro path.

Thats comedy gold. Really dude, call me when you get a party and try some Lob/Zerg/Mon 6s, i wanna see it.

That's really just about all we disagree on, as the rest is pretty standard (for instance, you go into tanky builds which is just kinda offtopic, going Brut/Monstro has nothing to do with what gear you are wearing).

Going any kind of skill-spec requires proper gear, especially when we are talking about 6v6 activity. Well.. but if you are wearing all the same in diff skill specs..

[Foofmonger]

I do think you are underrating the AoE KD, using it improperly and handing out free immunities is of course, bad, but timing it properly and using it can be good. It's all in the practical application. It's not used to burst targets down like a ST KD, and it's a defensive tool for your team. It's used to save someone on your team from death, as a "oh ****" button, and it can be used to snipe an extra interrupt on casted heales/rezzes on healers who aren't in the blob. Sure, it's bad when used improperly, but when you use it to save your other DPS who was at 5% hp and they get healed to full because of it, then you know that the immunities you handed out weren't "free", the opportunity cost of the immunities in this situation is "not having your dps die".

I do think you just dont know what you talking about.
1. Mara already have AoE range cast interrupt ability, combined with 2 tanks(taunts, punt, kd, interrupt) and main dps(kd at least) its more than enuf, since last healer will be focused immidiately, 2 active healers will res it 100% or enemies go full def and wait when dude come back from wc. AoE kd is useless for that purpose.
2. When you trying to save someone with 5% hp, that means enemies already got their immunity by your tanks(also zealot|WE stagger and main dps kd) were trying to save it / were assisting dps with killing enemy dps/healer. Or whatever they were doing all this time then? So you saying the mystic opportunity so save 5% hp partymember is worth investing into Monstro for AoE kd?

A Sav/Brut Marauder will just do nothing in Monstro, whereas in Brut/Monstro, you can keep up a little more pressure. The damage is still "piss poor", but it's not "as piss poor" as if you have 0 points in the Monstro path.

Thats comedy gold. Really dude, call me when you get a party and try some Lob/Zerg/Mon 6s, i wanna see it.

That's really just about all we disagree on, as the rest is pretty standard (for instance, you go into tanky builds which is just kinda offtopic, going Brut/Monstro has nothing to do with what gear you are wearing).

Going any kind of skill-spec requires proper gear, especially when we are talking about 6v6 activity. Well.. but if you are wearing all the same in diff skill specs..

I'm not trying to be combative here, we are having a reasonable discussion. Everything is good. .

1. You are correct, the use of the AoE KD is super duper situational, I'm not saying otherwise. What I am doing is pointing out that it isn't "useless" and there are situations where it can be used to a good effect. Are those situations potential rare/not going to happen a lot as you state? Sure. But again, you haven't changed my mind here, I disagree with you, and that's ok. We can agree to disagree on a minor point. It's entirely possible that I am wrong and over-valuing it.

2. You are just completely misunderstanding what I am saying on the point of Monstro damage, but its such a minor point thats fine. Nobody is saying "lob/zerg 6 mans" it is a super simple point, so I'll explain it again: When you are "are" in Monstro (because you will be at some points in time, due to trying to survive), your Flail/monstro damage is higher with points in the Monstro tree then 0 points in the monstro tree. It's not something to argue against, its just a minor fact that you don't seem to be getting. It's also not a huge selling point, but just a minor note. Again, I already went into the nuance above of flail damage not being terrible.

3. Yes, I agree, you need proper gear to perform in a competitive 6v6 environment, that's why I was pointing out earlier that we agree.

As I stated earlier, I thought your post was good and we agree on most major points, and disagree on some minor nuance. That's completely fair. You can have your opinion that "I don't know what I'm talking about", I really don't care either way, just happy to have the discussion for the community to learn.