Tzeentch's Firestorm

[Orontes]

If Wild Changing is the tactic that grants 15% crit, why should it also modify the cooldown of Firestorm? Can you demonstrate a need for that which is not linked to the Changing spec not being powerful enough in general?

Sir,

Yes. Wild Changing is the tactic that grants 15% crit.

To the questions on why it should modify the cooldown of Firestorm? This was the state prior to the moving of Firestorm to the Changing Mastery line. My understanding was the swap of Firestorm and Indigo Fire of Change was for more thematic unity (making single target and AOE abilities consistent in the mastery that focuses on each). It was not to weaken either ability. As things stand, Firestorm is weakened. Why? Firestorm is now unable to perform like Sorc Pit of Shades or BW's Rain of Fire. Sorcs have a cooldown modifier for Pit of Shades from the tactic Neverending Agony. . BWs have the same for Rain of Fire with the tactic Fiery Reserves. This makes magi less desirable or effective to either counter BWs Rain of Fire or match up as an alternative to sorc Pit of Shades. All through Live, Firestorm was a joke. This changed. I would not like to see a reversal in the progress.

If it is a choice between thematic consistency and having an effective ability, I would opt the latter. If Firestorm is to be in the Changing Mastery, please apply the cooldown to Wild Changing so the ability remains viable, as it was before the swap.

[Orontes]

If Wild Changing is the tactic that grants 15% crit, why should it also modify the cooldown of Firestorm? Can you demonstrate a need for that which is not linked to the Changing spec not being powerful enough in general?

Sir, (if I may add a second reply)

In the above I gave an initial answer to your question. It turns on a parity argument: a magus with the weakened Firestorm becomes notably unable to perform along a similar vein to the other two magic RDPS: BWs and Sorcs. For the Destruction side, this makes the class less desirable as an option in group settings.

Specific to the Changing Spec and it's potency: I don't think its controversial that the Changing Tree is the weakest of all Magi masteries. The clear benefit for a Change Focus Magus from the ability swap (with Firestorm having the cooldown applied) is it would allow said magus to much more effectively layer their AOE damage. Mist and Firestorm working in conjunction would help create sustained pressure damage in a controlled space. A weakened Firestorm cannot do this as there is a 10 second gap interrupting any attempt at sustained area damage and with Mist having such a long build up, in most instances it can be simply ignored.

Please restore/add the 10 second cooldown to Firestorm for Change Magi that spec up to the Wild Changing tactic.

[Azarael]

I have no intention of overpowering the 11 pt tactic and promoting Firestorm spam to fix wider problems with Changing.

Someone needs to make a proposal on Grenadier and Changing together, because both have issues and no one seems to be capable of agreeing exactly what they are meant to do. Mist and Napalm are just terrible abilities and not worthy of the 13.

[Nidwin]

Where to start. May be with the following

Nidwinqq (Magus) 40RR51
Nidwinaa (Sorc) 40RR42 (was RR51 but got docked 11 renown ranks for whatever reason linked to some folks exploiting a BO or so and I was apparently at the wrong place at the wrong time, crappy happens)

Why do you compare Tzeentch's Firestorm with Pit of Shades @Orontes? (don't play BW so no idea about Rain of Fire)
Is it cry baby mode, I don't want my not well balanced Tornado of doom properly being balanced vs other similar existing skills?

In the case of Tornado of doom, Magus vs Sorc, compare Tzeentch's Firestorm (Magus) vs Shadow Knifes (Sorc), will you please.
Both skills are in the same kind of oae Mastery Tree, now, and are more or less similar.

Tzeentch's Firestorm pros (as single skill)
Glean Magic for the spirit debuff
Does more base damage than Shadow Knives
Has a snare effect
Cost less AP than Shadow Knifes
Ranged increased with pink horor
10pts in Mastery Tree vs 14pts for Shadow Knifes

Shadow Knifes pros
Dark Magic
80ft range

Common for both now
16s CD (no cd reduction)

From 65ft non pink horror range for Magus and 80ft range Sorc
Magus has a ticking combo -> Mist + GM + Pand + TF
Sorc has a ticking combo from 80ft -> Shadow Knifes.

Magus
Flamer at full 8 stack (keeps 65ft range) makes GM and Pand tics just above 2s so if you want to time it you can have 4 ticking aoe stuff every 2s on plenty of targets.
Sorc has super omfg of doom Shadow Knifes + Dark Magic bonus + Dark Magic backlash


Did I miss something, I don't mind at all, trust me, as we are here to balance out stuff, aren't we?

Edit for types and forgotten "no"

[Nidwin]

for demonologi is ok as it is cuz it snare...

I'm not agreeing Tesq as for Daemonology, TZ has no place in a rotation because of lash spam after dotting up.
This doesn't mean that a Daemonology specced Magus can't spent Mastery points to get TZ of course but there's no "core" Daemonology gameplay benefit I could think of.

[Renork]

I have no intention of overpowering the 11 pt tactic and promoting Firestorm spam to fix wider problems with Changing.

Someone needs to make a proposal on Grenadier and Changing together, because both have issues and no one seems to be capable of agreeing exactly what they are meant to do. Mist and Napalm are just terrible abilities and not worthy of the 13.

Eh, I don't see how any modifications will help the change path. Most magi that I see playing simply lay down mist and hide to cast storm, so it is still useful for keep defense. Open field play change is just crap, mist is on a long CD and easy to avoid (plus the damage is bad unless you stand there for the full duration and even then the damage is average at most), storm is also on a long cd, all the dots are easily cleansable, seed is bad, there is no real burst (SOI can hit hard but requires a tactic and is also on 10s CD). You would have to rework the entire tree or add utility to it (tactic that makes rend winds hit harder + remove an enchantment??). Too much work :^)

[Darks63]

Undoing the 1.31 nerfs to glean/acid and panda/frag would be a good start for helping the change/gren paths. Those dots suffered a 40% reduction in damage the great aoe nerf.

[Renork]

Undoing the 1.31 nerfs to glean/acid and panda/frag would be a good start for helping the change/gren paths. Those dots suffered a 40% reduction in damage the great aoe nerf.

The problem with aoe dots is that they either underperform (currently) or they overperform. This server is mostly about zerg play and pug play (which is fine), so you can't make the dots too powerful or you'll just create a big mess (whines included). Balancing dots is just very hard, while adding utility would be easier (still a lot of work).

[Tesq]

To aza:

Magus/engi proposition were done,and they were declined, still dont know from who order q
because quoting official response,there were alredy have been too many rework done while other classes not had enough. Maybe now is different but if none tell it we cant know right? Are you open now to proposition? And to listen to those proposition?

/All, firestorm being compared to rain of fire etc

I was against that when it got fix to behave like that because that is NOT an aoe mastery, that was either a fix or an idea/as dev team see it that was said from torque, so assuming this is how dev team see that we refer to firestorm like that
My suggestion at the time for havoc which needed a channeling was to make firestorm as the bw skill on 13 pt left mastery; it should had done full dmg on st and half dmg on ppl near him and follow the target around and be arl high dmg channeling used as finisher.

Indigo should had see that crappy ap regen eff removed , reamain on mid mast, and had a heal denuff added while channeling if a flamer is alive
Which reapply as bw have the reapply snare on st channeling..

The 5 mastery skill should had be a speed proc like squig have which magus had in beta, so that squig+magus had 2x speed proc like sw+bw have 2 RKD. So that destru too could make a rdps premade like order do if they want.

Point 2 magus and engi are two diff classes with diff tactics. Magus have bw stuff and engi was more bursty than magus pre ror changes. Magus need propper CC stuff like engi need to be a propper super burst class like sorc.

Engi need a cross mirror with sorc dots mastery

And both engi/magus diss mist and napal need ti have a lower cd or no cd at all so that it can keep up in more spot at same time , so that pp cant exit from it so easily ( dmg dont stack so who cares).

Iimo ts about cross mirroring mostly as always, you refuse to cross mirror then you will have imconplete classes.

Anyway regardless above cross mirror matter, have engi/magus handled differently is the best course of action as change/granadier use diff tactic and so spec/gear differently.

Diss mist/napal dont need a dmg increase they need to be more persistent on the target.
Thry alredy perform very good in funneling and close space whay they lack os be a affordable BASE for the builds and not something rare.

Lastly mid mastery for both must be 85 feet + and not 65 feet+, 65 is a melee range and force you to spec way too much def.

[Nidwin]

I have no intention of overpowering the 11 pt tactic and promoting Firestorm spam to fix wider problems with Changing.

Someone needs to make a proposal on Grenadier and Changing together, because both have issues and no one seems to be capable of agreeing exactly what they are meant to do. Mist and Napalm are just terrible abilities and not worthy of the 13.

I agree with Renork on the Mist part. The only use I've ever found for Mist was on the live, post 1.4.X to deny order to lock a BO when timed or to give my group/wb a 20s+ early leave from a BO.

I can't speak for Engies, only experiences with my Magus.
Havoc and Daemonology are build up specs based on a combo of dots and dd's. As Neut and Beardz often wrote, we have a blow up rotation in Havoc, we just need more time to build it up vs Sorc. Daemonology (melee spec) is the same kind of build up with lash as dd spamable.

I'll let others with better knowledge about Havoc rotations post, but for Daemonology the involved skills I use
Daemonology rotation -> Glean Magic (spirit debuff plus subar aoe damage) + Pandemonium (Endless Pand slotted for lols sometimes) + Infernal Blast + Agonizing Torrent (optional) + Lash spam -> Chaotic rift somewhere before Infernal Blast.

If we put aside Mist, Path of Changing tree lacks at least one solid ranged aoe skill.
Changing rotation -> Glean Magic + Pandemonium + Tzeentch's Firestorm

On the AoR server a Magus could apply Pandemonium twice having a double Pand ticking for half of the duration but that was still poor for a path of changing Magus and not a solution.

Infernal Pain tactic is crap and is clearly not helping anyone. Seed of Chaos is crap, single target and damage way too low. But both do have a potential with some rework to fill the lack of ranged aoe skill if properly boosted. (my opinion)

As for Mist, ...
I'm afraid that needs to become something very different.