Shaman/AM nerf?

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Ysaran
Posts: 1273

Re: Shaman/AM nerf?

Post#101 » Thu Apr 11, 2024 5:07 am

salazarn wrote: Wed Apr 10, 2024 10:12 pm Im talking about shaman and archmages because they do actual damage. Im not complaining about straight healers being tanky.

DPS shaman can do damage on the move with instant dots and have great survivability / kite/ heals at the same time. They are probably the strongest roam class except maybe WE. IDK how anyone can deny that fact.
As for what I want, I would say balance shaman / archmage dps specs.
Shaman pays a price for being tanky. If you take the second HoT you have to sacrifice either the heal debuff or the silence. Either way you are no real dps. AM have 4 DoTs (one more than shaman) so it can do even more damage on the move. AM can be just as tanky as shaman, only not using toughness but M1 (for which you don''t have to spend 13pt like shaman, since it is core). Shaman/AM damage on the move has been halved since you can't cast I'll Take That/Balance Essence on the move. So I ask you again: what do you want more? How would you balance the class?

Finally, I can say that shaman is not the strongest roam class because that is not a "fact", just YOUR opinion. I play both side and I know just how annoying WH/AM/WL are. I would be more open to take your opinion seriously if I knew you played shaman/AM or even only both Destru and Order.
Zputadenti

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Re: Shaman/AM nerf?

Post#102 » Thu Apr 11, 2024 6:06 am

Lets not forget that AM have their DD abilities and 3 hots in the one tree- so maxing the tree maxes all those abilities with the extra dps that comes from an ability being in a maxed tree. Then there is the 2 for 1 abilities - heal debuff and dot for low price of 1 button press. Dot AND 5% outgoing dmg reduction AND 5% reduced chance to crit all again for the low low price of 1 button push. Shaman cant compete with this - with their DD and 1 dot being in one tree and the other 2 dots being in another tree - so its either 2 strong dots and weaker DD and 1 dot or strong DD and 1 dot plus another 2 weak dots. AM has plenty of points left after maxing middle tree to go up to puddle which also increases their resist buff . Then the absurd M1 - probably justifiable for a healer but just about all are dps in which case its borderline OP.

JohnnyWayne
Posts: 198

Re: Shaman/AM nerf?

Post#103 » Thu Apr 11, 2024 6:40 am

If you specc like that, you are not in a dps specc but in hybrid. You lose damage that makes you non competetive compared to other dps. Skill-wise you are pretty much miorrored in the trees on AM and shaman. Actually, shaman is the better class to go hybrid on, considering the kiting tactics. I think you are argueing here to keep your view on the world intact.
Aluviya wrote: Thu Apr 11, 2024 12:59 am [...snip...]
Pretty good read.

salazarn
Posts: 44

Re: Shaman/AM nerf?

Post#104 » Thu Apr 11, 2024 1:55 pm

Ysaran wrote: Thu Apr 11, 2024 5:07 am
salazarn wrote: Wed Apr 10, 2024 10:12 pm Im talking about shaman and archmages because they do actual damage. Im not complaining about straight healers being tanky.

DPS shaman can do damage on the move with instant dots and have great survivability / kite/ heals at the same time. They are probably the strongest roam class except maybe WE. IDK how anyone can deny that fact.
As for what I want, I would say balance shaman / archmage dps specs.
Shaman pays a price for being tanky. If you take the second HoT you have to sacrifice either the heal debuff or the silence. Either way you are no real dps. AM have 4 DoTs (one more than shaman) so it can do even more damage on the move. AM can be just as tanky as shaman, only not using toughness but M1 (for which you don''t have to spend 13pt like shaman, since it is core). Shaman/AM damage on the move has been halved since you can't cast I'll Take That/Balance Essence on the move. So I ask you again: what do you want more? How would you balance the class?

Finally, I can say that shaman is not the strongest roam class because that is not a "fact", just YOUR opinion. I play both side and I know just how annoying WH/AM/WL are. I would be more open to take your opinion seriously if I knew you played shaman/AM or even only both Destru and Order.
Wth is all this. Am has 1 more dot. Sham another Hot...and 240 free toughness....and movespeed buff... Im not even saying AM arent op. Both are for roam everyone knows this. Just that sham is even easier to play. And you act like sham dont get a morale 1. Gorksezstop vs 3600 shield both are good.

And who finds witch hunters scary bro. lol

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Ysaran
Posts: 1273

Re: Shaman/AM nerf?

Post#105 » Thu Apr 11, 2024 3:48 pm

salazarn wrote: Thu Apr 11, 2024 1:55 pm
Ysaran wrote: Thu Apr 11, 2024 5:07 am
salazarn wrote: Wed Apr 10, 2024 10:12 pm Im talking about shaman and archmages because they do actual damage. Im not complaining about straight healers being tanky.

DPS shaman can do damage on the move with instant dots and have great survivability / kite/ heals at the same time. They are probably the strongest roam class except maybe WE. IDK how anyone can deny that fact.
As for what I want, I would say balance shaman / archmage dps specs.
Shaman pays a price for being tanky. If you take the second HoT you have to sacrifice either the heal debuff or the silence. Either way you are no real dps. AM have 4 DoTs (one more than shaman) so it can do even more damage on the move. AM can be just as tanky as shaman, only not using toughness but M1 (for which you don''t have to spend 13pt like shaman, since it is core). Shaman/AM damage on the move has been halved since you can't cast I'll Take That/Balance Essence on the move. So I ask you again: what do you want more? How would you balance the class?

Finally, I can say that shaman is not the strongest roam class because that is not a "fact", just YOUR opinion. I play both side and I know just how annoying WH/AM/WL are. I would be more open to take your opinion seriously if I knew you played shaman/AM or even only both Destru and Order.
Wth is all this. Am has 1 more dot. Sham another Hot...and 240 free toughness....and movespeed buff... Im not even saying AM arent op. Both are for roam everyone knows this. Just that sham is even easier to play. And you act like sham dont get a morale 1. Gorksezstop vs 3600 shield both are good.

And who finds witch hunters scary bro. lol
I disagree and I already explained why, but that's not the point. The topic is about how would you "fix" shaman/AM. So I ask you again: what change do you think would make shaman/AM balanced?
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Ysaran
Posts: 1273

Re: Shaman/AM nerf?

Post#106 » Sat Apr 13, 2024 6:43 am

Aluviya wrote: Thu Apr 11, 2024 12:59 am I would like to share my insights as a long-time player of this class and particularly as someone who plays all other healers in competitive content such as group ranked. Here is my feedback on this topic (I know it’s a wall of text, but it’s not avoidable in this case):

Preface:
The dialogue surrounding healer classes often gravitates towards a superficial comparison of their healing output, particularly the ability to heal multiple targets. This approach overlooks the strategic utility these classes offer, leading to a misconception about their viability in certain contexts. Historically, DoK and WP were often seen on par with other healers due to their city healing output statistics while they still are especially in their conventional builds (Book-WP/Chalice Dok) another odd balanced class one could write about. Same applies here. One usually oversees the healing Shaman and AM as their DPS counterparts used to dominate 1 vs 1 battles in NA primetime.

Why AM and Shaman Struggle to Compete with Other Healers:

External Class Pressures:
The ability to Shatter Enchantments in small-scale and competitive play severely impacts both Shaman and AM, hindering their effectiveness heavily. The presence of at least 3-4 classes in a normal group ranked game capable of removing enchantments in a single global cooldown exacerbates this, significantly affecting their ability to maintain crucial HoTs amidst lengthy cast times.

Class Synergy and Meta-game Dynamics:

The interaction between AM+RP and RP+WP pairings (or their Destruction analogs) reveals clear differences. Dual Blessing setups are more resistant to Bless shattering, in contrast to AM or Shaman, which can protect DPS class enchantments. Moreover, the meta's shift towards proc-meta, particularly for Destruction with increased covenant proc rates (check pictures included), puts AM into a heavy disadvantage due to its lack of proc-based contributions. Shaman's ability for morale boosting requires careful coordination, risking the free immunity giving due to its appliance after a CC hits. AM's morale boost, though potent, may not align well with the current Order meta, especially in compositions like Slayer/WH - while there are yet very powerful offensive morales on destru side which can be a deciding factor if available early such as Zealot Talon M1, Choppa M4.

Small Scale PvP and the Evolution of Healing Roles:
In the current Small Scale PvP landscape, healing has become somewhat secondary to damage output and covenant/prayer contributions, particularly for SnB-WP and SnB-DoK classes. Their positioning and resilience to CC make traditional kill strategies less effective, demanding more nuanced tactical plays. Conversely, Shaman and AM lack significant damage output, making hybrid builds risky and less viable.

Class-specific Challenges:

AM and Shaman Mechanics: Both classes suffer from mechanics that either don't align with practical gameplay or are hindered by their design. For instance, AM's Cleanse mechanic negatively impacts its balancing, and Shaman's dual HoTs make efficient use of class mechanics challenging.

Reactive vs. Preventive Healing: The dichotomy between AM as a reactive healer and Shaman as a preventive one highlights their unique approaches but also their limitations, especially in the context of Small Scale PvP. AM's absence of a second HoT, a disadvantage in terms of resilience to Shattering, distinguishes it significantly in small-scale PvP contexts. Shamans, with their dual HoTs, adopt a more preventative healing approach, or when mimicking AM tactics, do so less effectively due to the absence of Funnel Essence. Conversely, AM operates as a reactive healer, primarily leveraging DPS spells to capitalize on its class mechanics for burst scenarios, enhancing HoTs and achieving quicker cast times for healing. This reliance on Funnel Essence elevates AM's performance, positioning it as a premier single-target burst healer in the game.

Animation and Cast Times: Odd cast times tied to class mechanics frequently disrupt gameplay, causing delays in action execution.

AP Drain and CC Inefficiencies: The nerfing of AP drain, coupled with inadequate CC capabilities due to low intelligence stats, further diminishes the strategic value of AM and Shaman in PvP settings.

I could name far more but the conclusion is AM and Shaman possess unique strengths but the current competitive environment and class mechanics often leave them overshadowed by other healers. Addressing these issues requires a nuanced understanding of each class's role and the broader meta-game dynamics.
Some recent 6 vs 6 statistics regarding the proc meta.
Image
Image
Tha's a very interesting analysis. It is clear that the mechanic and the distribution of skills tied to the mechanic don't match. Maybe a solution would be to tie all the skills to the mechanic.
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Bozzax
Posts: 2490

Re: Shaman/AM nerf?

Post#107 » Sat Apr 13, 2024 7:55 am

Shaman dual hots aren't a thing and offer ZERO advantage ... Knight x2 shatter + x2 damage combined with a CD-reduce means you kill your team if you use hots

Of the two AM is "better"

Btw The mechanic isn't "broken" it is just like SORC/BW most ignore it but you can play and "use" it.
A reasonable RvR system that could make the majority happy http://imgur.com/HL6cgl7

evildeadbird
Posts: 8

Re: Shaman/AM nerf?

Post#108 » Sat Apr 13, 2024 11:25 pm

AM/SHM struggle for various reasons.
Some randos who died solo to AM/SHM "wtf **** op nrerf now game ded"

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Aluviya
Posts: 149

Re: Shaman/AM nerf?

Post#109 » Mon Apr 15, 2024 10:31 am

Ysaran wrote: Sat Apr 13, 2024 6:43 am
Aluviya wrote: Thu Apr 11, 2024 12:59 am I would like to share my insights as a long-time player of this class and particularly as someone who plays all other healers in competitive content such as group ranked. Here is my feedback on this topic (I know it’s a wall of text, but it’s not avoidable in this case):

Preface:
The dialogue surrounding healer classes often gravitates towards a superficial comparison of their healing output, particularly the ability to heal multiple targets. This approach overlooks the strategic utility these classes offer, leading to a misconception about their viability in certain contexts. Historically, DoK and WP were often seen on par with other healers due to their city healing output statistics while they still are especially in their conventional builds (Book-WP/Chalice Dok) another odd balanced class one could write about. Same applies here. One usually oversees the healing Shaman and AM as their DPS counterparts used to dominate 1 vs 1 battles in NA primetime.

Why AM and Shaman Struggle to Compete with Other Healers:

External Class Pressures:
The ability to Shatter Enchantments in small-scale and competitive play severely impacts both Shaman and AM, hindering their effectiveness heavily. The presence of at least 3-4 classes in a normal group ranked game capable of removing enchantments in a single global cooldown exacerbates this, significantly affecting their ability to maintain crucial HoTs amidst lengthy cast times.

Class Synergy and Meta-game Dynamics:

The interaction between AM+RP and RP+WP pairings (or their Destruction analogs) reveals clear differences. Dual Blessing setups are more resistant to Bless shattering, in contrast to AM or Shaman, which can protect DPS class enchantments. Moreover, the meta's shift towards proc-meta, particularly for Destruction with increased covenant proc rates (check pictures included), puts AM into a heavy disadvantage due to its lack of proc-based contributions. Shaman's ability for morale boosting requires careful coordination, risking the free immunity giving due to its appliance after a CC hits. AM's morale boost, though potent, may not align well with the current Order meta, especially in compositions like Slayer/WH - while there are yet very powerful offensive morales on destru side which can be a deciding factor if available early such as Zealot Talon M1, Choppa M4.

Small Scale PvP and the Evolution of Healing Roles:
In the current Small Scale PvP landscape, healing has become somewhat secondary to damage output and covenant/prayer contributions, particularly for SnB-WP and SnB-DoK classes. Their positioning and resilience to CC make traditional kill strategies less effective, demanding more nuanced tactical plays. Conversely, Shaman and AM lack significant damage output, making hybrid builds risky and less viable.

Class-specific Challenges:

AM and Shaman Mechanics: Both classes suffer from mechanics that either don't align with practical gameplay or are hindered by their design. For instance, AM's Cleanse mechanic negatively impacts its balancing, and Shaman's dual HoTs make efficient use of class mechanics challenging.

Reactive vs. Preventive Healing: The dichotomy between AM as a reactive healer and Shaman as a preventive one highlights their unique approaches but also their limitations, especially in the context of Small Scale PvP. AM's absence of a second HoT, a disadvantage in terms of resilience to Shattering, distinguishes it significantly in small-scale PvP contexts. Shamans, with their dual HoTs, adopt a more preventative healing approach, or when mimicking AM tactics, do so less effectively due to the absence of Funnel Essence. Conversely, AM operates as a reactive healer, primarily leveraging DPS spells to capitalize on its class mechanics for burst scenarios, enhancing HoTs and achieving quicker cast times for healing. This reliance on Funnel Essence elevates AM's performance, positioning it as a premier single-target burst healer in the game.

Animation and Cast Times: Odd cast times tied to class mechanics frequently disrupt gameplay, causing delays in action execution.

AP Drain and CC Inefficiencies: The nerfing of AP drain, coupled with inadequate CC capabilities due to low intelligence stats, further diminishes the strategic value of AM and Shaman in PvP settings.

I could name far more but the conclusion is AM and Shaman possess unique strengths but the current competitive environment and class mechanics often leave them overshadowed by other healers. Addressing these issues requires a nuanced understanding of each class's role and the broader meta-game dynamics.
Some recent 6 vs 6 statistics regarding the proc meta.
Image
Image
Tha's a very interesting analysis. It is clear that the mechanic and the distribution of skills tied to the mechanic don't match. Maybe a solution would be to tie all the skills to the mechanic.
As I previously mentioned it is a very delicate line of balancing both classes. However my current vision should generally be that:
Cleanse - as a core mechanic to healers should not be tied to class mechanics of any class (not DoK/WP nor AM/Shaman) It doesn't align well with the class mechanic often resulting in players not or rarely using cleanse at all. In case of AM and Shaman it is the shift towards the healer mechanic and the bad output you gain from spending the countermechanic to improve cleanse. For WP and DOK it is the heavy cost class mechanic - these classes are already very mechanic thirsty in the long run and struggle especially while kiting. I suggested here already several times that conventional WP and DOK should actually be able to turn AP to classmechanic via cleansing which would already fortify both classes as both can't really heal while kiting (outside of hots)

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BluIzLucky
Posts: 710

Re: Shaman/AM nerf?

Post#110 » Mon Apr 15, 2024 2:52 pm

Aluviya wrote: Mon Apr 15, 2024 10:31 am
Spoiler:
As I previously mentioned it is a very delicate line of balancing both classes.
However my current vision should generally be that:

Cleanse - as a core mechanic to healers should not be tied to class mechanics of any class (not DoK/WP nor AM/Shaman) It doesn't align well with the class mechanic often resulting in players not or rarely using cleanse at all.

In case of AM and Shaman it is the shift towards the healer mechanic and the bad output you gain from spending the countermechanic to improve cleanse.
Hm.. can't say I share this experience, maybe it's specific to Group Ranked or a utility heavy playstyle (e.g. casting 1x EoV, 1x Heal and 1x of utility; drain, puddle and debuffs to maintain mechanic balance)?

But for me, the only time you would NOT be full stack on either side was as solo, hybrid or pure heal with pre-nerf WW cast on CD (gone from at best 50% to now 33% uptime).

For solo cleanse with mechanic is actually good, as you get it every 3 sec, even better with Isha's Encouragement.

Hybrid in WB don't care about cleanse (too low value) and in casual small scale benefits like above.

For pure heal in +12 scale, cleansing is usually also pretty low priority, so doesn't matter.

That in my eyes, just leaves competitive 6-12 where you have at least 1 WW bot AND still only in cases you specifically DON'T want it to give points (i.e. occasional cleanse, but not spammed or no 5xTranq for EoV spam with WW ).


If a change is needed, I'd rather see utility spells always give counter point with different bonus (e.g. AP Drain + tranq = +20% disrupt pen, + force = +20% drained).



As for your long post, I agree in the context of Ranked, just don't think it should necessarily impact broader balance design much.

Also afaik RP+AM has anti-synergy heal bonus with RP's Blessing of Grungni and AM's Desperation NOT stacking, where it does for RP+WP..
Last edited by BluIzLucky on Mon Apr 15, 2024 2:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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