[SH] Consider replacing Squig Leap

[Manatikik]

The ability, quite simply, makes mSH insanely overpowered.

Silly

Indigestion was already nerfed to 3 seconds. No heal debuff, no armor debuff, weak aoe morales (fights usually end long before M4), no snare/root immunity and Sorc/Choppa has way stronger aoe damage.

You are overreacting.

So SH literally has all of those things. Yes it takes a little more maneuvering to get tour HD and armor debuff up but you can do it and can’t complain that you can’t (not to mention it’s easy as hell on destro to get both of those things); you have a self morale pump so you get M4 very quickly; and you have FM snare/root immunity; you get a charge on a non-mdps; and they have excellent aoe utility with good damage.

All that being said the only change I think it needs is pounce to always have a CD (cause it’s just silly to allow a class to have a 0 cd mobility skill) and maybe Kaboom’s KB being reduced to normal range (this is only cause of the cancer that is IC stage 1 palace push).

People like to overreact on both sides trying to say something is too weak or two strong when in reality it needs one or two tweaks to be at a perfect state (where it’s currently in a pretty good state already).

[Kragg]

mSH can’t,

Debuff it’s own damage
Has no heal Debuff
Has no root/snare immunity
No armor ignore abilities
Doesn’t have a pull
Doesn’t have a tanky pet that hits like a truck
Andddddd is the only toon on destro with a pounce.

White lIons are so overpowered The fact you’re asking for other class nerfs in discussion is baffling.

Also...

mSH dont do 2k damage autoattacks
mSH dont kill you in 2 -3 secs
mSH dont have m1 who deals 1200 damage or ranged root +900 damage or 7 seconds of 100% parry
...

Oh yeah you're right - they can stack as much armor as a tank running focused offense, probably more, have an assload of toughness but still pump out numbers like a Slayer can, probably even better. Not to mention the knock up that has no cool down.

^

[wargrimnir]

We're not interested in significant reworks for the melee squig spec. It does its job correctly and causes the salt to flow, a clear indicator of a well done balance change. Squig leap is iconic to the intro cinematic and serves as the single balance point to multiple mobility options on Order. It's not going anywhere.

[zgolec]

We're not interested in significant reworks for the melee squig spec. It does its job correctly and causes the salt to flow, a clear indicator of a well done balance change. Squig leap is iconic to the intro cinematic and serves as the single balance point to multiple mobility options on Order. It's not going anywhere.

To bad you give it insane boost/viability in various scenarios while not even consider WL changes [Aza change siwth some tweaks would make thsi clkass wb viable] except maybe for further nerfs...

[wargrimnir]

We're not interested in significant reworks for the melee squig spec. It does its job correctly and causes the salt to flow, a clear indicator of a well done balance change. Squig leap is iconic to the intro cinematic and serves as the single balance point to multiple mobility options on Order. It's not going anywhere.

To bad you give it insane boost/viability in various scenarios while not even consider WL changes [Aza change siwth some tweaks would make thsi clkass wb viable] except maybe for further nerfs...

Try keeping your hands on the keyboard and watch for the red squiggles if you want to communicate effectively.

We have made several adjustments to WL and mSH over the past several months. Keep talking trash though, I'm pretty sure you're on your last warning right?

[teiloh]

Incorrect. Rationale was provided in post, from a RR70+ Squig Herder (prior to all the new buffs that is). The ability, quite simply, makes mSH insanely overpowered.

If you like, we can give White Lions a cone CD increaser and say, a ranged AOE DPS toggle mode if that's what you prefer. Lets say he climbs into a bipedal lion and it basically becomes a Magus/Bright Wizard, but better.

There is no rationale given. You confuse assertion with argumentation. They are not the same. This isn't a serious thread with anything of substance to present. It's a thread simply from someone who can't handle they got killed by a mSH.

ra·tion·ale
/ˌraSHəˈnal/
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noun
a set of reasons or a logical basis for a course of action or a particular belief.

If you have an argument, please feel free to contribute. If not, move along.

[teiloh]

We're not interested in significant reworks for the melee squig spec. It does its job correctly and causes the salt to flow, a clear indicator of a well done balance change. Squig leap is iconic to the intro cinematic and serves as the single balance point to multiple mobility options on Order. It's not going anywhere.

Addressing two points:

1) The ability is iconic. You're referring to this scene here?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zKOhzfkCdbY&t=1m46s

Originally, Run Away! was a knock forward, reinforcing my thought that it was the counterpart to Pounce and possibly the iconic cinematic squig leap:

Patch 1.2:
Run Away!: This ability's cost has been lowered. The knock forward effect has been changed to a movement speed increase effect.

That said the cinematic leap could have been 'Ard Noggin or Big Bouncin'. Then again the cinematic had the SW dual-wielding (which would be cool), as well as flying from rooftops. SW vertical movement buff in Assault confirmed??

2) Balance point on mobility options

Is the design intent to mirror core RvR capabilities? There are several areas in which Order is lacking as follows:

Outgoing heal debuffs (Mind Killer uptime vs. IB equivalent, WE Kiss uptime vs WH bullets)
Incoming heal debuffs (DoK crit tactic superiority vs RP crit tactic, DPS RP has dubious viability)
Pulls (GTDC, Marauder pull superior to WL pull)
Knockdowns (Marauder has only AOE knockdown other than Self-Destructs)
Damage reflects (Marauder M4s, two Misdirection classes, Chosen AOE Bane Shield, etc)
AOE DPS (Big Bouncin itself is huge advantage)
Interrupts (BO)
Long-range punts (SH, BG + Chosen vs KOTBS) afaik IB punts aren't so dramatic
CD Increasers (BO Not in Da Face! and Choppa Tired Already?)
CD Decreasers (Choppa is much more popular than SM, their version requires no Stance manipulation, and is number 2 on the tree vs. 3 for SM)
Morale Builders (BO, Chosen, Sham vs AM)
Morale Damage (Marauder AOE morale drain spam vs very poorly positioned WH tactic)
AP Damage (Marauder)

Also, if we're speaking plainly of mobility options and not actual leaps, Destro had the following:

RUN AWAY! (Shaman)
RUN AWAY! (SH)
Run Away! (SH, the ability)

To rephrase, the fact that the mSH can catch people to attack is not and never was the issue - they have two of the game's very few run speed increases for that - the issue that Squig Leap gives them almost infinite mobility with no cost to huge effect on Warband RvR, and also overloads the class. Specifically, the time it takes for a SH to get into a backline and hit their AOE CD increaser is maybe 5-10s faster than a Slayer and the risk/downside to doing that is almost nothing. A Slayer might never even get in position as they have to wade through enemies. Changes to Choppa/SH have reversed what were arguably slight Order advantages into clear Destro advantages.

imo making all of the core Squig Melee options usable in big squig would allow for some simplification of the Stabbin' spec without much change in overall balance.

[zgolec]

Specifically, the time it takes for a SH to get into a backline and hit their AOE CD increaser is maybe 5-10s faster than a Slayer and the risk/downside to doing that is almost nothing. A Slayer might never even get in position as they have to wade through enemies. Changes to Choppa/SH have reversed what were arguably slight Order advantages into clear Destro advantages.

imo making all of the core Squig Melee options usable in big squig would allow for some simplification of the Stabbin' spec without much change in overall balance.

This.

Destro tho and some staff compare this pounce to WL... But forget about little thing that WL got 0 utility to use while on backline. Denial will not change that.

[Starx]

We're not interested in significant reworks for the melee squig spec. It does its job correctly and causes the salt to flow, a clear indicator of a well done balance change. Squig leap is iconic to the intro cinematic and serves as the single balance point to multiple mobility options on Order. It's not going anywhere.

gogo gadget grapple hook for wh confirmed?

[M0rw47h]

Instead of proposing nerfs to more or less balanced class, propose buffs that make SW and WL more WB friendly.