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BO/SM thread

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rmpl
Posts: 766

BO/SM thread

Post#1 » Mon Jan 14, 2019 7:36 pm

Now I'd like to begin by saying that this is not a balance proposal simply because I can't be bothered to write an essay to prove my points (or more likely, I wouldn't be able to since I skipped my rhetoric classes) and this isn't really aimed at the higher-ups either because I know their position on mirroring but I'm more curious about other players' opinions.

1. Why was Wall of Darting Steel mirror given to BG instead of BO? It's extremely strong for them since they have an instant AP regen ability and it synergises very well with their career resource. Don't get me wrong, You wot! is a nice ability and it's better than nothing but it's deeply flawed and I'd trade it for WoDS in a blink of an eye. Why?
  • You Wot! has 30ft range which means that most of the time you will be using it on tanks or pets and not your actual targets because you need to activate the defensive bonuses and because of that the 10% damage bonus goes to waste.
  • Can be only used on targets in front of you, therefore it's not really an effective escape tool when you compare it to flee+ap pot+WoDS.
  • It has 10s downtime while WoDS has no cooldown nor activation time and while it has an AP cost it doesn't really matter since SM/BO have no AP problem due to THC/Ether Dance and other finishers costing no AP. Sure you can taunt to interrupt it but a smart SM will notice it and if you didn't CC the SM during that small period of time then he will just WoDS again.
  • -20% movement speed for 10s. Mobility is the king and I don't need to explain how big of a downside this slow is. Yes I know you can Juggernaut out of the slow but that's still extremely annoying. I didn't know how bad -20% slow is until I started using You Wot!
  • It leads to Da Gud plan which essentially fk ups your rotations.
2. Why did SMs receive Crashing Wave in their Ether Dance tree but BOs didn't?
If you don't want BOs to have both a stun and Not In da Face you could've just swapped NiDF with WAAAAGH! Unless there is other reason for that.

3. Why did SMs receive mid-distance punt but BO didn't?
You Can't Hit me, an ability which is used only in PVE, should go back to its previous place as a 13pt and we should be given the punt mirror.

4. Wings of Heaven
You are lucky because I'm not that upset over this since Distracting Bellow is a M2 now but the fact that this hadn't been mirrored for so long is just crazy. What would I give for a teleport with 60% snare attached to it, especially since the M2 of BOs is bad bad.

5. Why do SMs deal spiritual damage with Ether Dance?
This one is perhaps the most baffling. Yes, I know we orcs have our OP racial tactics and Morale Pumps etc. but I would gladly give those up for the possibility of dealing corporeal damage with my THC because we are living in the armour stacking meta. Here you can have my 25% CD, NIDF mirror and give me that sweet sweet magic damage.

What advantage do BOs have over SMs when it comes to 6v6s and smallscale other than NIDF?

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Martok
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Re: BO/SM thread

Post#2 » Mon Jan 14, 2019 8:22 pm

Holy crap.

rmpl wrote: Mon Jan 14, 2019 7:36 pm1. Why was Wall of Darting Steel mirror given to BG instead of BO?

The question is why was it given to either. There should be individuality among tank classes as opposed to simply creating the Doppelganger class.

rmpl wrote: Mon Jan 14, 2019 7:36 pm2. Why did SMs receive Crashing Wave in their Ether Dance tree but BOs didn't?

Again, why should Black Orcs receive Crahsing Wave just because Sword Masters did? The change to Crashing Wave for SM's made sense, allowing a two-hand build access to an effective CC ability. The means to counter that is not to simply grant the same ability to everyone else.

rmpl wrote: Mon Jan 14, 2019 7:36 pm3. Why did SMs receive mid-distance punt but BO didn't?

SM's do not have a punt, they have a general knock-back better employed as an interrupt as opposed to an instant.

rmpl wrote: Mon Jan 14, 2019 7:36 pm4. Wings of Heaven -- You are lucky because I'm not that upset over this since Distracting Bellow is a M2 now but the fact that this hadn't been mirrored for so long is just crazy. What would I give for a teleport with 60% snare attached to it, especially since the M2 of BOs is bad bad.

Correct me if I am wrong, but to BO's not have a charge? In addition Wings of Heaven is an M2 ability, just as you say, which means it can not be employed with anywhere near the efficiency of Pounce. Or the Marauder Pull. Or the Magus pull. Or the Choppa pull. Or Witch Elf stealth. Or that green crap every gobo character tosses all over the place. Wings constitutes an occasional advantage at best, not an ability able to be spammed at will.

rmpl wrote: Mon Jan 14, 2019 7:36 pm5. Why do SMs deal spiritual damage with Ether Dance?

Why not? Ether Dance is one of our primary means to actually damage an opponent, but your position appears to be god forbid a Black Orc takes any actual damage from a Sword Master.

rmpl wrote: Mon Jan 14, 2019 7:36 pmThis one is perhaps the most baffling. Yes, I know we orcs have our OP racial tactics and Morale Pumps etc...

And OP, as you call them, racial tactics and morale pumps are not enough?

rmpl wrote: Mon Jan 14, 2019 7:36 pm... but I would gladly give those up for the possibility of dealing corporeal damage with my THC because we are living in the armour stacking meta. Here you can have my 25% CD, NIDF mirror and give me that sweet sweet magic damage.

Did it ever occur to you that perhaps, just perhaps, someone else in your party or group may inflict magic damage?

rmpl wrote: Mon Jan 14, 2019 7:36 pmWhat advantage do BOs have over SMs when it comes to 6v6s and smallscale other than NIDF?

The same as any other class has over any other class. You spec, you group, you play, you win some you lose some.
Blame It On My ADD Baby...

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mikke
Posts: 148

Re: BO/SM thread

Post#3 » Mon Jan 14, 2019 8:37 pm

I believe that You Wot 10% dmg increase just does not work. At least I can`t see any difference in dmg with or w\o it.
Image

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rmpl
Posts: 766

Re: BO/SM thread

Post#4 » Mon Jan 14, 2019 8:41 pm

Martok wrote: Mon Jan 14, 2019 8:22 pm The question is why was it given to either. There should be individuality among tank classes as opposed to simply creating the Doppelganger class.
Because such a strong ability should be either nerfed or mirrored. Imagine if only Mara had the ability to pull people, that's how it feels like.
Martok wrote: Mon Jan 14, 2019 8:22 pm Again, why should Black Orcs receive Crahsing Wave just because Sword Masters did? The change to Crashing Wave for SM's made sense, allowing a two-hand build access to an effective CC ability. The means to counter that is not to simply grant the same ability to everyone else.
Why not? Why shouldn't Black Orcs have the same access to Crashing Wave as SMs? You get it in your 2H tree while BOs have to go in a separate tree just to get it.

Martok wrote: Mon Jan 14, 2019 8:22 pmSM's do not have a punt, they have a general knock-back better employed as an interrupt as opposed to an instant.
Image
Martok wrote: Mon Jan 14, 2019 8:22 pmCorrect me if I am wrong, but to BO's not have a charge? In addition Wings of Heaven is an M2 ability, just as you say, which means it can not be employed with anywhere near the efficiency of Pounce. Or the Marauder Pull. Or the Magus pull. Or the Choppa pull. Or Witch Elf stealth. Or that green crap every gobo character tosses all over the place. Wings constitutes an occasional advantage at best, not an ability able to be spammed all over the place.
Black Orc has no charge and I honestly don't know why are you mentioning other classes' abilities while comparing BO/SM. While the M2 wasn't extremely overpowered, there were plenty of situations during which I thought "damn if I only had that flying M2 instead of a toughness buff M2". If it's not as strong as you're saying then you shouldn't really object to a mirror.

Martok wrote: Mon Jan 14, 2019 8:22 pmWhy not? Ether Dance is one of our primary means to actually damage an opponent, but your position appears to be god forbid a Black Orc takes any actual damage from a Sword Master.
Because your mirror class deals physical damage in a meta where everyone stacks armour, effectively dealing less damage with an exception of low lvls without armour pots. Why should that be allowed?

Martok wrote: Mon Jan 14, 2019 8:22 pmAnd OP, as you call them, racial tactics and morale pumps are not enough?
I was obviously being ironic, I'm saying that it's a bad trade and I would use SM's kit instead of BO's without blinking an eye.
Martok wrote: Mon Jan 14, 2019 8:22 pmDid it ever occur to you that perhaps, just perhaps, someone else in your party or group may inflict magic damage?
What does that have to do with anything? Even if someone else does magic damage in your group, you are always better off dealing magic damage yourself since most people run 60-80% armour and 30-40% resist.
Last edited by rmpl on Mon Jan 14, 2019 8:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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rmpl
Posts: 766

Re: BO/SM thread

Post#5 » Mon Jan 14, 2019 8:43 pm

mikke wrote: Mon Jan 14, 2019 8:37 pm I believe that You Wot 10% dmg increase just does not work. At least I can`t see any difference in dmg with or w\o it.
It does work, you can test it easily on the dummies. You probably don't see any difference because 10% isn't that much but it's still something.

MayoDaen78
Posts: 105

Re: BO/SM thread

Post#6 » Thu Jan 31, 2019 1:01 pm

rmpl wrote: Mon Jan 14, 2019 7:36 pm Now I'd like to begin by saying that this is not a balance proposal simply because I can't be bothered to write an essay to prove my points (or more likely, I wouldn't be able to since I skipped my rhetoric classes) and this isn't really aimed at the higher-ups either because I know their position on mirroring but I'm more curious about other players' opinions.

1. Why was Wall of Darting Steel mirror given to BG instead of BO? It's extremely strong for them since they have an instant AP regen ability and it synergises very well with their career resource. Don't get me wrong, You wot! is a nice ability and it's better than nothing but it's deeply flawed and I'd trade it for WoDS in a blink of an eye. Why?
  • You Wot! has 30ft range which means that most of the time you will be using it on tanks or pets and not your actual targets because you need to activate the defensive bonuses and because of that the 10% damage bonus goes to waste.
  • Can be only used on targets in front of you, therefore it's not really an effective escape tool when you compare it to flee+ap pot+WoDS.
  • It has 10s downtime while WoDS has no cooldown nor activation time and while it has an AP cost it doesn't really matter since SM/BO have no AP problem due to THC/Ether Dance and other finishers costing no AP. Sure you can taunt to interrupt it but a smart SM will notice it and if you didn't CC the SM during that small period of time then he will just WoDS again.
  • -20% movement speed for 10s. Mobility is the king and I don't need to explain how big of a downside this slow is. Yes I know you can Juggernaut out of the slow but that's still extremely annoying. I didn't know how bad -20% slow is until I started using You Wot!
  • It leads to Da Gud plan which essentially fk ups your rotations.
2. Why did SMs receive Crashing Wave in their Ether Dance tree but BOs didn't?
If you don't want BOs to have both a stun and Not In da Face you could've just swapped NiDF with WAAAAGH! Unless there is other reason for that.

3. Why did SMs receive mid-distance punt but BO didn't?
You Can't Hit me, an ability which is used only in PVE, should go back to its previous place as a 13pt and we should be given the punt mirror.

4. Wings of Heaven
You are lucky because I'm not that upset over this since Distracting Bellow is a M2 now but the fact that this hadn't been mirrored for so long is just crazy. What would I give for a teleport with 60% snare attached to it, especially since the M2 of BOs is bad bad.

5. Why do SMs deal spiritual damage with Ether Dance?
This one is perhaps the most baffling. Yes, I know we orcs have our OP racial tactics and Morale Pumps etc. but I would gladly give those up for the possibility of dealing corporeal damage with my THC because we are living in the armour stacking meta. Here you can have my 25% CD, NIDF mirror and give me that sweet sweet magic damage.

What advantage do BOs have over SMs when it comes to 6v6s and smallscale other than NIDF?
when the devs said they will give wods equivalent to destro, I thought at the time, that they would have given it to BOrc not BG, imo that skill should have been given to BO which is SM mirror not to BG. I still think without WoDS, BG is still very tough even with 2H, much tougher than BOrc when the BOrc is in 2h...

About that medium Knock back, I think most SM don't spec that, most SM I know spec Khaine with ED and the rest to Hoeth to get the bubble PoH...I myself play SM as my main. That redirected force skill is speccable and its in Vaul tree.

You also mentioned about SM deals spiritual damage while BOrc deal physical, both classes have another skill to buff up their respected damage type and to debuff their opponents defense based on that damage type, SM with WoH while BOrc with armor debuff ( Wot Armor), so I think they are quite even there and also ED being spiritual damage synergizes it functions with WoH which debuff spirit resistance. Same thing with your Three hit Combo which deals physical damage synergizes with your armor debuff skill ( wot armor), so i dont get why you complained so much about ED deal spiritual damage, the Devs did that so it is more inline with BOrc Three hit combo + Wot Armor. BOrc is really good at bursting down low armor class from order side ( the squishy ones like BW, AM etc ...) also destro have very strong melee train. SM on the other hand wont do much burst damage but more sustained damage across most classess whether its low, medium or heavy armor class. I still think on that regard BO and SM are still quite balanced

Lastly about SM wings of heavens morale, I would find it quite silly if BOrc get the same exact mirror skill like that, a bit weird to see big green orc flying around trying to catch fleeing order lol....maybe a charge skill that will stun for short amount of time when you reach the target you're chasing, that would be more suitable imo
Ezraim - SM 7x
Tessaline - WP 5x
Binary - BW 6x

MayoDaen78
Posts: 105

Re: BO/SM thread

Post#7 » Thu Jan 31, 2019 1:18 pm

rmpl wrote: Mon Jan 14, 2019 8:41 pm
Martok wrote: Mon Jan 14, 2019 8:22 pm The question is why was it given to either. There should be individuality among tank classes as opposed to simply creating the Doppelganger class.
Because such a strong ability should be either nerfed or mirrored. Imagine if only Mara had the ability to pull people, that's how it feels like.
Martok wrote: Mon Jan 14, 2019 8:22 pm Again, why should Black Orcs receive Crahsing Wave just because Sword Masters did? The change to Crashing Wave for SM's made sense, allowing a two-hand build access to an effective CC ability. The means to counter that is not to simply grant the same ability to everyone else.
Why not? Why shouldn't Black Orcs have the same access to Crashing Wave as SMs? You get it in your 2H tree while BOs have to go in a separate tree just to get it.

Martok wrote: Mon Jan 14, 2019 8:22 pmSM's do not have a punt, they have a general knock-back better employed as an interrupt as opposed to an instant.
Image
Martok wrote: Mon Jan 14, 2019 8:22 pmCorrect me if I am wrong, but to BO's not have a charge? In addition Wings of Heaven is an M2 ability, just as you say, which means it can not be employed with anywhere near the efficiency of Pounce. Or the Marauder Pull. Or the Magus pull. Or the Choppa pull. Or Witch Elf stealth. Or that green crap every gobo character tosses all over the place. Wings constitutes an occasional advantage at best, not an ability able to be spammed all over the place.
Black Orc has no charge and I honestly don't know why are you mentioning other classes' abilities while comparing BO/SM. While the M2 wasn't extremely overpowered, there were plenty of situations during which I thought "damn if I only had that flying M2 instead of a toughness buff M2". If it's not as strong as you're saying then you shouldn't really object to a mirror.

Martok wrote: Mon Jan 14, 2019 8:22 pmWhy not? Ether Dance is one of our primary means to actually damage an opponent, but your position appears to be god forbid a Black Orc takes any actual damage from a Sword Master.
Because your mirror class deals physical damage in a meta where everyone stacks armour, effectively dealing less damage with an exception of low lvls without armour pots. Why should that be allowed?

Martok wrote: Mon Jan 14, 2019 8:22 pmAnd OP, as you call them, racial tactics and morale pumps are not enough?
I was obviously being ironic, I'm saying that it's a bad trade and I would use SM's kit instead of BO's without blinking an eye.
Martok wrote: Mon Jan 14, 2019 8:22 pmDid it ever occur to you that perhaps, just perhaps, someone else in your party or group may inflict magic damage?
What does that have to do with anything? Even if someone else does magic damage in your group, you are always better off dealing magic damage yourself since most people run 60-80% armour and 30-40% resist.
You are aware that armor debuff for tanks are much higher at max level than resist debuff at max level right? So it does make sense that most ppl run with 60-80% armor and 30-40% resist.

At max level armor debuff from tanks is about 990 and resist debuff is around 378 (pls correct me if I am wrong but I think it's around that figure)

It would be a real problem if an armor debuff at max level is only 378 while most ppl run with 60-80% armour because BOrc will have trouble damaging their opponents, same thing with SM, if the max resist debuff is around 990 it will be a problem too because most ppl run with 30-40% resist, the SM will kill everyone so fast is not even funny anymore. But thank GOD in RoR, that doesn't happen. So your reasoning that magic damage is better than physical damage is still not convincing enough.
Ezraim - SM 7x
Tessaline - WP 5x
Binary - BW 6x

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rmpl
Posts: 766

Re: BO/SM thread

Post#8 » Thu Jan 31, 2019 2:07 pm

Why are people even bringing up the resist debuffs, 3xx resist debuff is enough to bring unbuffed targets to 5% resist unless you're running Winds Impervious set. Borc debuff is not aoe and it reduces armour for about the same amount as blue armour pot increases.

Three hit combo is physical because BO has an armour debuff (one of the worst in the game especially if you're running with mara and bg that crap ain't even on my hotbar), that's not an argument because naturally BO would get a magic damage reduction skill if three hit combo were to be changed into magical to mirror SM.

Again, I don't care that I can do more damage against cloth armour classes which are almost non-existentional in 6v6 with few small exceptions, the meta is focused around melee trains and armour, and THIS is why doing magical damage is always better even if you stack 1500 armour debuff with demolishing strike, YOU'D STILL BE BETTER OFF DOING MAGICAL DAMAGE. BOs got the short end of the stick and if there was an experimental mode which allowed BOs to use SMs toolkit I wouldn't even blink twice before switching to it.

I don't really care about M2 anymore, Distracting Bellows craps on it and I wouldn't use Wings of Heaven right now even if I could.

I'm not asking for THC to become magical damage, just pointing it out how ridiculous it is for SMs to have Ether Dance deal spiritual on top of a huge spiritual damage debuff. Let's also not forget that THC got nerfed by making it 2h only. In reality, BO has no other advantage over SM than Not In Da Face! and several disadvantages.

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Wiede
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Re: BO/SM thread

Post#9 » Thu Jan 31, 2019 3:16 pm

Not an expert but...

I don't find WODS that op... you can't do **** while channeling and that sucks for a tank especially a tank that brings dps to the table.
Also the reason high RR BGs are more into their parry tactic than using their "WODS"-mirror afaik. I know you can channel it for eternity with their ap tactic, but what is the BG doing meanwhile? Yep, nothing.

2h BO is a tank with huge multipliers on DPS (30% taunt, 25% on crit) to generate burst... using their +10% on another target seems like a fair trade off for getting defences. 20% slow are indeed a funkiller, no question, but you rly need a tradeoff for their bonus while "u wot mate". I didnt even know you can get out of that slow with jugg.

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Kurama
Posts: 154

Re: BO/SM thread

Post#10 » Thu Jan 31, 2019 3:29 pm

The trade off is BO looks badass, probably the best looks in the game. While SMs well...

You bring up NIDF ans 6v6. I thought the KD was the way to go since meta is to kill dps not healers?
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