Forum rules
Before posting on this forum, be sure to read the Terms of Use
Your topic MUST start with your class name between hooks (IE : [Shaman] blablabla)
charlysixb wrote: ↑Tue Jul 10, 2018 2:53 pm
Squig Herders dont have outgoing heal debuff plus all the things you saying aint possible with one single spec.
PD: Tesq can i've name of your squig please?
Take away Horned Squig and the Squig Herder will lose armor buff for 30 seconds and in that time can happen many things.
Once you go out of SA you need 10 seconds to get back ( unlike another class we know wich stance buffs aint linked to pets ).
Oh.. is it not? SH - All tools mentioned. Granted, that build deals no damage and while you're not technically correct, you probably wouldn't build both incoming (not outgoing, like the WLs -- incoming is normally seen as "better" or "essential for each group" btw since it works on both healers and non-healers) heal debuff and Outta My Way with the same spec.
Horned Squig is on a 15s cooldown while in SA. Please bring facts.
charlysixb wrote: ↑Tue Jul 10, 2018 2:53 pm
Squig Herders dont have outgoing heal debuff plus all the things you saying aint possible with one single spec.
PD: Tesq can i've name of your squig please?
Take away Horned Squig and the Squig Herder will lose armor buff for 30 seconds and in that time can happen many things.
Once you go out of SA you need 10 seconds to get back ( unlike another class we know wich stance buffs aint linked to pets ).
Oh.. is it not? SH - All tools mentioned. Granted, that build deals no damage and while you're not technically correct, you probably wouldn't build both incoming (not outgoing, like the WLs -- incoming is normally seen as "better" or "essential for each group" btw since it works on both healers and non-healers) heal debuff and Outta My Way with the same spec.
Horned Squig is on a 15s cooldown while in SA. Please bring facts.
Right "While on SA" and 30 from outside.
Heal Debuff is not usable "While on SA" having you to go outside SA losing Pounce,Outta My Way, Indigestion, Self Heal and all the tools SA gives ( while waiting 10 secs to go back and breaking it again to renew heal debuff target and so on ) Same with Armor Dbuff .
All the things you're saying are very nice "On Paper" like Run Away dont have a counter or SH's have doble ini debuff.
Last edited by charlysixb on Tue Jul 10, 2018 3:24 pm, edited 2 times in total.
charlysixb wrote: ↑Tue Jul 10, 2018 2:53 pm
Squig Herders dont have outgoing heal debuff plus all the things you saying aint possible with one single spec.
PD: Tesq can i've name of your squig please?
Take away Horned Squig and the Squig Herder will lose armor buff for 30 seconds and in that time can happen many things.
Once you go out of SA you need 10 seconds to get back ( unlike another class we know wich stance buffs aint linked to pets ).
never say they have one if that was aimed at me, i said prob it should be give to melee squig <3 IF the burst is not on par with wl st, btw is like what lv 11
/whocares? i have plenty of other chars 40/40 and even 50 60 70 and i know what builds had both squigs and sw till Ror changes.
Ladies ang gentleman. I think this "thing" with SHs going out off control. Let me stop You right there.
Squig herder is not pure Melee class. Say it with me. "Squig herder is not pure melee class"! Stop to compare ranged class with melee potential with true melee class which is White lion. Squig herders are at the moment out of control. In theyr melee stance they can use all the tools used mostly in ranged spec(self punt, AOE knockback kaboom, run away).
Tools which stabbi squig herders has at the moment is not funny. Its ridicolous.
I agreed that melee SHs needed some kind of buff, but for the love of god and sake of other players some parts NEED to be tonned down SIGNIFICALY.
charlysixb wrote: ↑Tue Jul 10, 2018 3:22 pm
Right "While on SA" and 30 from outside.
Heal Debuff is not usable "While on SA" having you to go outside SA losing Pounce,Outta My Way, Indigestion, Self Heal and all the tools SA gives ( while waiting 10 secs to go back and breaking it again to renew heal debuff target and so on ) Same with Armor Dbuff .
All the things you're saying are very nice "On Paper" like Run Away dont have a counter or SH's have doble ini debuff.
So, you're diminishing the other utility, control, mobility, and survivability (and any other -ilities) the class brings to a group because you can't use armor debuff & heal debuff while in squig armor? btw - all you really got with the patch (in terms of added utility) was Outta My Way and a reason to enter SA besides in conjunction with Kaboom, which means SHs have had this mobility & utility imbalance for a while.
Please check what OP said. This topic is for us - SH to share our observations, what is good, what can be changed, to say: thank u devs i was waiting for this rework very long time. This is not "RP/WP/Engie hysterical rant topic" or place where moderators cant act like moderators. Please roll SH, make it to 40/50 + get gear, get some time playing new, remaked tree in rvr. sc. solo. scenarios and Then talk here.
I know making another thousand posts with "i dont like recent changes" instead of trying it will be prob easier for most of u.
Kretschmer wrote: ↑Tue Jul 10, 2018 4:18 pm
Please check what OP said. This topic is for us - SH to share our observations, what is good, what can be changed, to say: thank u devs i was waiting for this rework very long time. This is not "RP/WP/Engie hysterical rant topic" or place where moderators cant act like moderators. Please roll SH, make it to 40/50 + get gear, get some time playing new, remaked tree in rvr. sc. solo. scenarios and Then talk here.
I know making another thousand posts with "i dont like recent changes" instead of trying it will be prob easier for most of u.
I'll gladly discuss SH versatility in a balance proposal, unless you don't want to make one about your fav class
Any interrupt would have stopped that SH in his track (which all tanks have access to in taunt btw), and that ability has a 55 second CD so not like he's chaining it. It's also a channel that requires AP so ap drains work.
You are arguing that if a SH gets guard he is hard to kill. Ok, not gonna argue against that, but it applies to every dps class in the game, I've run into plenty of seemingly unkillable slayers with the right support. Any SH that is staying in guard range is not pouncing backlines wrecking havoc on his own, he's near his tank and likely the melee train where it should be no surprise your casters aren't going to have a good time if they stand nearby. Their innate self healing is on another large CD ability that can also get interrupted, unlike guardian WL which gets a tactic for nice regen that requires 0 GCDs or AP during a fight and can't get locked down with good play. I'm curious how high you are managing to get your defense rates on your own squig herder since I am unable to get any of mine above 50% with Sneaky Git up and proc'd and it really does not seem exceptionally high for a BiS geared defensive spec'd toon with maxed defensive renown masteries and a blockable tactic proc active. If I miss Sneaky Git after diving into backlines and the enemy gets off Pierce Defenses (which should happen in any decent WBs backline extremely fast, especially since my defense is apparently so high I will immediately dodge their first attack) then I am looking at 11.6% parry, 15.1% dodge which doesn't really strike me as an impenetrable amount of defense.
FYI with the way their armor buff works, unless I'm mistaken they take 2x the value of any armor debuff against them (debuff hits base value which then does not get doubled from horned squig), so 1 good armor debuff and you have just severely lowered their durability. There is no amount of armor I can stack where a WL debuff (which is undefendable unlike my armor buff attack) doesn't lower my armor under effective cap far as I know, and I'm in almost full armor talis atm. Even if there is that is one hell of an investment and I encourage you to try it out and let us know how strong your burst is.
Alright, so there's a couple of problems with the way you're arguing things with me here, Foomy.
First of all, you're using a hypothetical situation where the tank is 100% of the time in a position to interrupt anything anyone does, and is also capable of perfectly noticing it in the commotion of a fight. In an ideal world, yes. However, the truth is that it's not as easy to do, when the squig herder jumped into your backlines. It requires the tank to move back from the frontline and taunt, which could actually cause it to collapse. This means that the backline has to deal with that squig herder alone and cc him and burst him down. That's also, in fact, not easy to do because I do actually see a lot of disrupts from the squig herder despite sporting a totaly disrupt strike through of 27% before intellect (908) is included into the equation. Despite that, they disrupt very regularly and I imagine a bright wizard, shadow warrior and engineer would have even more trouble getting anything to stick onto the squig herder.
Secondly, you're using a really specific tactic to argue your point of being squishy. So there's Pierce Defenses, a tactic, that has a proc chance on one class, that is unpopular in WB play due to lacking aoe damage. I'm going to use WB play here, because you seem to focus most of your entire post on it.
Thirdly, I don't think it would have been worth mentioning the SH's survivability if my argument was "he's hard to kill under guard". That's not the point. Everyone is hard to kill under guard, as you've stated. The point is that the SH is HARDER to kill under guard than most other mdps, however when they pounce into the backline in a warband scenario, they usually aren't guarded and can still often get away alive. What's more, lets go back to the pouncing backline scenario for a second here, if any other MDPS decided to do that in a warband scenario they would get instantly and mercilessly melted, even if we provide them with a hypothetical scenario where they teleport right into it in order to simulate pounce, which is and has not been the case for squig herder so far. You may say whatever you like in theory, however in practice, they are actually very very tanky in comparison to other mdps. I'm not sure what you're playing exactly and how strong of an investment your armor talismans really are or what your RR is, but the squig herders I've fought against (in a small scale 6v6 scenario, it should be noted) have been capable of taking about 70% of my hp in the span of their knockdown duration and were also far more difficult to take down than any marauder or choppa would have been, considering that they are essentially overextended and without a guard as a result, and this was a consistent thing across most of the melee squig herders I've ran into. That's all I can say and that's all I will say, because that's all the information I have available to me and that is also exactly the information I have presented. If you're also interested in my stats, I can say that I have about a negative 5% chance to recieve a crit, 200 toughness, 2k armor and 6.1k hp, and the fact that I have hots from Lambent Aura (270 hp every 2 seconds) and the lifetap dot usually ticking on me (variable healing, but usually doesn't go below 200) shouldn't be ignored, of course.
It's also worth mentioning the difference in our tones. I get that you like your squig herder, but I'm simply reporting my experiences playing against it. I'm not setting out to nerf it on purpose, I'm merely relaying information, which the devs can then choose to use or ignore in any way they see fit. So, if your goal is to defend your favorite class's current power level, that's fine, but I'm simply not the person you will want to do it with, because your are in essence attempting to dispute what I have experienced. I've taken your previous words into account that I may be mistaking various squig herder builds, and even after that, the result is the same. Tanky even without a guard, takes well over half of my hp over the knockdown duration and that's all I can say for basically the majority of squig herders. You can continue to argue with this, but at this point it'll be either a dishonest argument with an attempt to discredit my point of view by saying that I have no right to speak about my experiences with this class because I don't play for it, which I hope you won't do, because the perspective of someone going up against a class shouldn't be any less valuable than someone that plays it, or you simply will continue to misinterprit my experiences for made up hypothetical situations and argue against them in that fashion. Either way, I'm not accusing you of having done any of these things, I'm simply saying that this conversation is not going to get us anywhere.
I'm arguing for WB play because most points you brought up seemed about it and because guardian WL still stomps SH in small scale or 1v1. The way you describe your small scale encounters with SH as unbalanced really makes it seem like you have never played against a good guardian WL and don't understand what destro has been dealing with for the last half year. All of my destro RDPS toons die during knockdown+fetch, and I have fought multiple WL's where I can barely move their HP after all their defensive stats and regen are factored in. On the other side, my guardian WL has won multiple 1v5 fights, something I have never even come close to on any other toon. If that's balanced, so is what you're dealing with in small scale. It's painful for any squishy that doesn't have a tank and heals nearby. I'm no healer pro but your setup seems pretty glass cannon, and glass cannon healers die to guardian WLs as easily as any other squishy so makes sense stabbity SH would give you trouble IMO. My dps shaman has about those stats, here is a screenshot of him taking 3553 damage in literally 1 second from a guardian WL https://imgur.com/a/3EwdGHs
Also FYI pierced defenses is a pretty important debuff for warband play, -15% to avoidance stats does indeed increase the amount of aoe damage enemies will take. I run in it 4/5 of my tactic setups, don't think it's unreasonable to assume someone in a WB will be carrying it, and order gets it on twice as many classes as destro I believe so even more common for you guys.
FTR I'm not pretending this buff wasn't huge for SH, they are amazing atm and in a great place, definitely one of the better classes in the game, I just don't think they are so OP they eclipse anything order can bring to the table, order has plenty of crazy good specs too. I could see them getting tweaks, WL did get plenty of nerfs after guardian rework despite how much many destro love to claim it's been nothing but a buff train for em. But WL were SERIOUSLY stupid on rework release, no joke my pet could solo most casters and SHs for over a month before they nerfed that. I am speaking very honestly when I say my SH feels strong but not overpoweringly so, I've run into plenty of specs I can't take on in small scale and 2 of our new strong abilities people love to complain about can be interrupted and have long CDs and constant AP cost, that seems like it allows good counterplay for skilled players which is good design IMO (and Outta My Way is REAL obvious when going off, people will learn to interrupt it). If I HAD to vote on something to nerf I think atm I'd have to say giving the CD debuff to another class might be the way to go, SH might be too mobile to have such a strong AoE debuff now. Or maybe tie the debuff to a tactic so they have to sacrifice something for it as their jack of all trades builds seem to be a big issue with people (although I think that issue is being exaggerated quite a bit). Need a lot more time playing the spec to feel comfortable sticking with that choice though, and I imagine ranged players would consider it another unnecessary nerf.
Sorry for gettin offtopic, I'll shut up now
Last edited by Foomy44 on Tue Jul 10, 2018 6:01 pm, edited 10 times in total.
anarchypark wrote: ↑Tue Jul 10, 2018 4:33 pm
I have a question.
have you tried funnel break ? in siege.
with both kaboom and running KB ability.
it's hard to see order funnel but maybe in EU time, anyone?
like intro movie's squig charge
I've yet to actually see any funnels- maybe it's because I get bored and quit before it reaches that point. I have leapt and kaboomed a few times though and I have also tried using charge to knock players into destro hordes- but it's not very accurate/reliable.
If I'm lucky, destro will manage to get a kill out of the kaboom, but more often then not, the enemy player manages to run back into their blob and get healed.
