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[SH] Discussing the new changes

Black Orc, Squig Herder, Choppa, Shaman
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Foomy44
Posts: 572

Re: [SH] Discussing the new changes

Post#91 » Tue Jul 10, 2018 10:32 pm

Spoiler:
dansari wrote: Tue Jul 10, 2018 2:43 pm
Sedok wrote: Tue Jul 10, 2018 6:21 am Right now, the SH has everything; good burst, unbelievable mobility, great survivabilty, and great utility.
This is my main gripe about SHs in general. On paper they have a ton of tools they get for free or very cheap, so you can swap at will depending on situation without needing a respec. Need to play defensive? Slot auto detaunt (which procs off of everything, including dot ticks, and stacks multiplicatively with the single target detaunt). Need to play kite? Slot Run Away. Need to morale pump yourself for aoe slow m2? Slot Strength in Numbas. Plus they get an on demand move speed buff in the same line as the heal debuff, plus Kaboom at core (which is better than both SM and BO aoe knockbacks). I'm not saying it's *easy* but it's likely the most versatile class in game and it does very many things better than other classes rather than just being mediocre in all of those variables. Take for example, guardian WL vs stab SH: WL brings less utility, control, and mobility and only beats stab SH in burst on single targets (Utility - horned squig blessing shear, ranged block % reduction + armor debuff, self morale pump, Pierce Defenses, incoming heal debuff, 40ft cone cooldown increaser, 65ft ST init debuff, vs ST armor debuff, arguably worst self morale pump in game, outgoing heal debuff higher in the tree // Control - Kaboom, Outta My Way, aoe m2 slow, melee snare, 65ft ranged snare, melee interrupt, 2s kd, 3s disarm, 4s ranged silence vs interrupt, 2s kd, 4s melee silence, melee snare, m1 ST root // Mobility - self punt, on demand move speed, move speed tactic, squig leap, and Outta My Way vs pounce, Charge, Speed Training. Stab SH is still miles ahead of Guardian WL in warband setups, despite losing its gimmicky m4 to a 5min cooldown. Take another example in ASW vs Stab SH: again, ASW brings less utility, control, and mobility than stab SH, and is only slightly better than guardian WL in warband play because of nerfed double init debuff and outgoing heal debuff.
I have run in multiple stabbity SH groups/WBs since rework, I have yet to see a stabbity SH willingly leave SA just to use abilities like What Blocka, heal debuff, ini debuff etc. Heal debuff has a 9 second duration and you get locked out of SA for 10 seconds when you leave it, how would you work that into a rotation? And why would you use it on a target you want to kill if it means you lose access to all the melee attacks you filled a whole mastery tree to boost during the duration of the heal debuff? Plus you can't take the heal debuff and max the stabbity tree so I would say almost every stabbity SH out there is probably not grabbing it. Do you have access to those numbers? I'd honestly love to know how many are skipping stabbity abilities to try to work that in.

Saying Kaboom is a better knockback than SM and BO knockback is a little misleading, yes it has further range and is easier to time but those knockbacks don't lock you out of half your abilities + 360 points of stats for 10 seconds or root you in place during the explosion/flying gobbo animation.

Pierce defenses is great for sure. Order has easier access to it so doesn't seem unbalanced to me, and it's a tactic slot. These jack of all trades SH builds seem to use a lot of those.

Melee interrupt doesn't work in Squig Armor while WL interrupt is AoE, pretty important differences. On demand move speed (assuming you mean Run Away!) does not work in Squig Armor. You leave out pretty important details in your comparisons, like WL armor debuff is undefendable so if you are getting focused by a WL you will almost always have it on you, wheras SH ini debuff isn't useable in SA which makes it SIGNIFICANTLY less likely to get used on you by a stabbity SH, pretty big difference in usefulness.

It seems like you wrote down a list of every ability SH has access to with no real regard for how to fit them into a spec or how ineffective it is to actually try to mix some of those into any type or rotation when half of them lock you out from the other half and a bunch of your stats. That build you linked seems borderline useless to me personally. In what situation is sacrificing all that stabbity stuff for the healdebuff a good call? If you are solo you won't use it because you won't be able to do good dps during the duration of the healdebuff due to being locked out of SA (yes, theoretically you could use it at the end of the 10 second CD, but that means you just spent 10 seconds without access to all of your burst so the enemy most likely isn't going to be low enough on HP for your healdebuff to matter before the duration ends), and if you are in a group almost any other healdebuff in the game will be easier to use and won't have so many negative side effects on your group's build and combat effectiveness. If you want to spam healdebuffs so bad you are willing to constantly leave SA and give up those mastery points I think a ranged spec is probably a better fit.

Honestly, how many of you guys are seeing SHs drop SA mid-combat to use all these ranged abilites? I drop it for kaboom because I am forced to and ranged snare/Run Away! if I'm chasing someone and pounce isn't working, that's it. If I'm already locked out of SA from a kaboom then sure I shoot stuff but that's just what I'm forced to do while I wait for SA to come off CD, not my ideal strategy. I see you play SW so I assume you are thinking of how those stance mechanics function when considering how stabbity plays. 10 seconds of losing SA is a lot longer than 5 seconds of losing stance switching for SW (if I tried drop SA to use an armor debuff and ini debuff against a geared guardian WL I would not make it the 10 seconds to get back into my SA), and you don't get locked out of as many abilities when changing stances either, many SW abilities can be used in 2 stances, it makes a difference. Also don't forget all the stats you lose, the 120 wounds basically gives all your ranged attacks the fine print of "If at full HP in Squig Armor, also deal 1200 morale damage to yourself" and guarantees that damage if you choose to start fights in gobbo mode instead of SA so you can open with all those ranged debuffs. Another big difference between the 2 mechanics is SW stance dancing doesn't use a GCD while entering SA does. So in this hypothetical world where stabbity SHs are constantly stance dancing to utilize all their ranged core abilities regardless of how poorly that performs in reality or how long it locks them out of all the stuff they actually spec'd for, they are also constantly using GCD's to do 0 damage, 0 healing, and 0 utility, doesn't seem like an ideal strategy to me.

I do agree that a stabbity SH has a large variety of tactics they can switch out for different roles which make them very versatile without needing to respec, but that doesn't affect how strong any SH can be in 1 spec at any time so doesn't really seem like something to balance around IMO. Their versatility without needing to respec is really a side effect of the way their mastery trees are setup IMO, there is only 1 melee tree for SH so when you max it you pretty much have access to everything a melee SH will need, it's not like WL where you can throw pounce into a different tree than guardian to make them spend more points for it, although maybe there is some creative way to put must have stabbity abilities/tactics in other trees if that's really a goal anyone wants to pursue.
Last edited by Foomy44 on Wed Jul 11, 2018 10:53 pm, edited 4 times in total.
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dansari
Posts: 2524

Re: [SH] Discussing the new changes

Post#92 » Wed Jul 11, 2018 2:11 am

Holy wall of text. My entire point is that all of those things are accessible to one class. So you don't get to use Run Away in SA? You can still spec for it and use it when not in SA... As opposed to not having access to it at all.
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Foomy44
Posts: 572

Re: [SH] Discussing the new changes

Post#93 » Wed Jul 11, 2018 5:14 am

and my dps shammy can spec to take to take every ability in the the healing tree, guess that means he can be a dps and healer at the same time just like SH can be a ranged debuff bot and a melee focused tank with great burst and aoe if you ignore every part of the reality of that situation that makes it not work well. And Run Away! is the one mastery ability in a non stabbity tree that I said is worth using and that I still work into many fight (when I have to), if you're going to cherry pick 1 example from my post don't make it that one please (or the ranged snare, the way our pounce was designed basically requires us to use one of the 2 to catch many runners)
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dansari
Posts: 2524

Re: [SH] Discussing the new changes

Post#94 » Wed Jul 11, 2018 9:18 am

And a Mara can be a beefy frontline morale drain bot or a high single target damage+debuff bot. Just because you have to switch stances doesn't mean you can't have access to both of those trees (Mara is a more practical example given that the main tools you want you have to spec for, whereas SH can just ignore big shootin and have access to pretty much everything they want). Stop trying to frame the conversation around "but muh SA" when clearly you don't *have* to be in SA 100% of the time and just acknowledge you have more core/cheap tools ("choice") that allows SH to be more versatile than practically every other class.

This isn't the balance forums so that'll be my last post
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lefze
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Re: [SH] Discussing the new changes

Post#95 » Wed Jul 11, 2018 9:36 am

dansari wrote: Wed Jul 11, 2018 9:18 am And a Mara can be a beefy frontline morale drain bot or a high single target damage+debuff bot. Just because you have to switch stances doesn't mean you can't have access to both of those trees (Mara is a more practical example given that the main tools you want you have to spec for, whereas SH can just ignore big shootin and have access to pretty much everything they want). Stop trying to frame the conversation around "but muh SA" when clearly you don't *have* to be in SA 100% of the time and just acknowledge you have more core/cheap tools ("choice") that allows SH to be more versatile than practically every other class.

This isn't the balance forums so that'll be my last post
Actually, melee SH suffers from the same issue ranged SW does. While you for example could spec FtW, how often do you actually get to use it? At what cost? Same goes for the armor debuff and silence among other things. Getting locked out of your kit for a full 5 seconds sucks, 10 seconds makes it just unbearably inefficient.

So while this is all fine, we should stop pretending like a melee SH can pop everything they want at will, because they can't, and they shouldn't able to either.
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Nameless
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Re: [SH] Discussing the new changes

Post#96 » Wed Jul 11, 2018 3:29 pm

Well they can, if they should is other question
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Stinkyweed
Posts: 458

Re: [SH] Discussing the new changes

Post#97 » Wed Jul 11, 2018 4:52 pm

Can we get a ranged SH fix too?

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ToXoS
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Re: [SH] Discussing the new changes

Post#98 » Wed Jul 11, 2018 5:07 pm

Stinkyweed wrote: Wed Jul 11, 2018 4:52 pm Can we get a ranged SH fix too?

/ducks&covers
Pretty much that :D

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anarchypark
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Re: [SH] Discussing the new changes

Post#99 » Wed Jul 11, 2018 10:22 pm

kaboom is undefendable, can anyone confirm it?
how long immune timer does it give ?
in theory, can you use it every 10 sec ?
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forsa
Posts: 139

Re: [SH] Discussing the new changes

Post#100 » Thu Jul 12, 2018 7:19 am

It is good that we have a huge balance change discussion here, sadly no one mentions how bad and uninteresting it is to play on the receiving side.

First thing is the "Outta My Way" earth trembling . All order somewhat organised groups stopped going SC due to this change.
Being sure that it cant be that bad i gave it a try and in every sc i saw 3-5 SH rolfstomping due to healers being constantly swarmed with that *fun* stagger/kb thingy that cannot be resisted and cooldowns applied.

As most of you would say "it is perfectly interruptable " - it is not. Just selecting 1 SH in a ~ 6v6 fight when screen trembles non-stop is an issue. Now in reality it is not 6-6 and there are 2-3 of them ganging up on your healer in the backline; combine it with an added cooldown on Taunt (the main and only skill that is used to stop mara from 100% pulling your healer into des zerg). Even if timed properly, good luck with selecting SH and not wasting Taunt on pet, or simply selecting wrong SH.
Even killing SH pet horned squig is questionable - "melee resistance" is definitely waaaay overtuned as it takes ~5 seconds to kill with a WL, not mentioning tanks.

Indigestion - 40 ft cone , 20 sec cd cooldowns increaser on a the most mobile class in the game surprisingly makes it that everyone in your (order) team is affected.
We can go on about how SL was imbalalnced with old shatter limbs, or we can give this to another class buffed and improve the "FUN" aspect of the game.

P.S. : If you ever played Dow 2 you know there is a huge balance/update mod called " ELITE " where you have additional units and BALANCE. Now this balance comes with the option of "godlevel buff for race/unit x" just based on the fact that creator plays that race and sees it that way, or a friend of creator assked for it, even if it is proclaimed OP on a different unit/race by creator himself multiple times.
The point is : thought there are lots of new interesting things and units added, dow2 community is perfectly aware of it, it is played by same 3-4 #@@ELITE@@# players, while everyone keeps playing the old Dow2.
Now we don't have core game to go back to, but based on what I hear from people, it will be SH+BG+DOK+Mara vs pug 24/7 soon.

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