[Shaman] DPS Shaman vs AM

[Renork]

What do you guys think DPS shaman/AM need in order to be considered viable in group settings?


Some thoughts and things from similar threads (not my own)...

>Shaman/AM should be reworked into "pure" healers like RP/Zealot
>Shaman/AM should be reworked so that they have a non hybrid DPS spec
>Buffing Shaman/AM will make them more OP than they already are 1v1 and small scale
>Hybrid specs will only work in 3-2-1 groups, which means the entire meta needs to change

Either way I feel like these classes are most in need of changes even more so than magus/engineer. Their heal specs can't compete because RP/WP and Z/DoK combo is extremely strong and synergizes well, 2/3rds of their trees deal with doing damage yet those specs aren't anywhere near viable and aside from utility like the silence they aren't getting anything from those 2 trees when healing spec... and classes like WP get a baseline silence they don't even need to spec for, RP/Z get a stronger 6 sec stagger...

Their mechanic is a total game design failure that has almost no use in healing spec, and limited/gimmicky use in DPS spec (when in a group).

I really like hybrid playstyle, it's just frustrating to see them in the state they are now and the things that might be holding them back from getting buffed.

That's the life of a hybrid. MJ didn't get his concept from WoW (I see a lot of people here are WoW players), his concept came from Dark Age of Camelot. And guess what? Hybrids there also sucked. To give you a comparison,

Thane = caster/melee hybrid, no 8-man would run one. They added a 150 dd on their level 50 sword style (positional/back) and *then* they were viable, then it was nerfed and once again they were less "optimal" than a true tank or dps. Easy to CC out of a fight.

Reaver = Hybrid/lifetap dps, same problem. They were easy to CC out of a fight and their damage potential was not on par with mercenaries.

Valewalker = initialy this class was horrible, all styles had positional requirements and the miss rate was atrocious. Also, being a hybrid meant their castable lifetaps did not hit anywhere near close to an animist. Later, they reworked the class and added some interesting positionals which made them somewhat more viable in a group setting. Still, a blademaster was better due to charge/harder to CC.

See the trend? All hybrids suffered in that game too. The problem with hybrids is you CAN'T make them better than a true dps class or a true healer class. So balancing them is stupid hard. If you make it so that a true dps is outperformed by a HYBRID then you just destroyed balance :^)

Zerker > Thane (hybrid)
Blademaster > Valewalker (hybrid)
Mercenary > Reaver (hybrid)

[Gobtar]

What do you guys think DPS shaman/AM need in order to be considered viable in group settings?


Some thoughts and things from similar threads (not my own)...

>Shaman/AM should be reworked into "pure" healers like RP/Zealot
>Shaman/AM should be reworked so that they have a non hybrid DPS spec
>Buffing Shaman/AM will make them more OP than they already are 1v1 and small scale
>Hybrid specs will only work in 3-2-1 groups, which means the entire meta needs to change

Their mechanic is a total game design failure that has almost no use in healing spec, and limited/gimmicky use in DPS spec (when in a group).

I really like hybrid playstyle, it's just frustrating to see them in the state they are now and the things that might be holding them back from getting buffed.

1)I don't think making them pure healers is the way to go. I would actually like to see RPs/Zealots have a "real" mechanic instead of mythic laziness, and would abhor additional changes to move Shamans in that direction.
2) I think this should be handled by the mechanic, and decided by the devs what role DPS healers should have.
3) Honestly I couldn't care about 1v1, maybe as WH or WE I would, but this game is to be balanced around 1v1. AMs are already king of the 1v1, buffs that would make it relevant in other avenues should not be held back by it's 1v1 potential.
4) Meta changes organically. If classes are changed to be highly desired, and lessens the opportunity cost of other set-ups then the meta will change to incorporate what is powerful. I believe when everything is balanced our meta will be incredibly diverse, there will be roster theories not dedicated comps.

BONUS ROUND: I also love hybrid, I think the whole point of the shaman was to be a dedicated hybrid healer, it's mechanic is too clunky and heals take too long to make this viable, there is also no access to Party wide lifetaps, The only class that doesn't have an AoE Hot. It is also the only class without an instant heal, it's fastest direct heal being 1s.

[Jaycub]

I think the key would be having utility unique to the spec, meaning that the healing spec either cannot use it... or use it any where near effectively as the DPS spec.

For instance both Shaman/AM have a blessing strip ability... while healing AM can spec for it, it requires a high frequency of damaging spell casts to be effective. Not to say this tactic is even good in DPS spec, just using it as an example for something that is more effective in a DPS setup.

Basically DPS shaman/AM need to have some kind of unique utility/mechanic that makes them good in a niche group, becuase as you said they will never be as good as a pure healer or dps in terms of raw output.

An example would be maybe DPS shaman gets Getting smarter back, but it is reworked to steal the highest stat on the target and is tied to their 6 sec channel and scaling with points in DPS mechanic buildup. Meaning a heal shaman wouldn't be able to take advantage of it without going WAY out of their healing rotations to do it. This is just a rough idea, but an example I think of a unique utility they could bring to a group.

[Gobtar]

Spoiler:

I think the key would be having utility unique to the spec, meaning that the healing spec either cannot use it... or use it any where near effectively as the DPS spec.

For instance both Shaman/AM have a blessing strip ability... while healing AM can spec for it, it requires a high frequency of damaging spell casts to be effective. Not to say this tactic is even good in DPS spec, just using it as an example for something that is more effective in a DPS setup.

Basically DPS shaman/AM need to have some kind of unique utility/mechanic that makes them good in a niche group, becuase as you said they will never be as good as a pure healer or dps in terms of raw output.

An example would be maybe DPS shaman gets Getting smarter back, but it is reworked to steal the highest stat on the target and is tied to their 6 sec channel and scaling with points in DPS mechanic buildup. Meaning a heal shaman wouldn't be able to take advantage of it without going WAY out of their healing rotations to do it. This is just a rough idea, but an example I think of a unique utility they could bring to a group.

I think their mechanic should mitigate the Shaman's Multiple Attribute dependency (whatever the mechanic is). This might solve T4s Shammies issue with no reliable AP drain and being able to use their lifetaps to assist their healing numbers. I think both AMs and Shaman's should also have access to some form of mass heal over time (lifetap if continuing with the hybrid philosophy, and both classes have some means of instant healing (even if it's on a CD, AMs currently have Funnel Essence to help trigger desperation exactly when the situation arises)

I am curious in your "DPS only" spec...

Thoughts?

[Jaycub]

The DPS only spec wasn't my idea that's why I put (not my own). Tried looking for the thread but I couldn't find it, was like 10+ pages with dev posts discussing changes to DPS am/shaman. I will try to find it later.

But the idea was to make it so in some way the DPS spec Shaman/AM would not be able to heal at all or be even more restricted than it is now in order to allow buffs to those specs to bring them in line with other RDPS so they could compete for those spots are true RDPS instead of hybrids.

Not the best solution but one that was tossed around.

[Shadowgurke]

That's the life of a hybrid. MJ didn't get his concept from WoW (I see a lot of people here are WoW players), his concept came from Dark Age of Camelot. And guess what? Hybrids there also sucked. To give you a comparison,

Thane = caster/melee hybrid, no 8-man would run one. They added a 150 dd on their level 50 sword style (positional/back) and *then* they were viable, then it was nerfed and once again they were less "optimal" than a true tank or dps. Easy to CC out of a fight.

Reaver = Hybrid/lifetap dps, same problem. They were easy to CC out of a fight and their damage potential was not on par with mercenaries.

Valewalker = initialy this class was horrible, all styles had positional requirements and the miss rate was atrocious. Also, being a hybrid meant their castable lifetaps did not hit anywhere near close to an animist. Later, they reworked the class and added some interesting positionals which made them somewhat more viable in a group setting. Still, a blademaster was better due to charge/harder to CC.

Thane: One of the best bodyguarders when tanks still had 9s slam, could help the debuff train for rofldps. Templates were just way too expensive for them to be viable, when Chain casteritems got affordable they nerfed Slam.

Reaver: Not a hybrid. One of the stronger EU groups ran one in their tanktrain

Valevalker: Not even the same role as BM. Castable AoE disease make this char better than people give it credit for-

Hybrids you didnt mention:

Valk: Absolute beast in any 8 man.

Shaman: Core of every mid group

Heretic: Before the Slam change one of the best classes in the game. After the nerf still a decent class in the flex spot

Bard: Best class in Hib

Warden: Solid healer, solid Bodyguard

DAoC is a different game and stuff worked different there. Don't compare the two. And if you do, at least make sure you are correct

[gungnir08]

BONUS ROUND: I also love hybrid, I think the whole point of the shaman was to be a dedicated hybrid healer, it's mechanic is too clunky and heals take too long to make this viable, there is also no access to Party wide lifetaps, The only class that doesn't have an AoE Hot. It is also the only class without an instant heal, it's fastest direct heal being 1s.

Welp, I just spent half an hour writing a bunch of suggestions for Vaul/Da Green, but the forum's anti-DDoS check killed it after I hit the Submit button. Here's the condensed version:

- Make AM/Shaman's lifetap HoT a group HoT. Increase the cooldown to compensate for this.
- Prismatic Shield/Mork's Buffer should be a Core ability so that any AM/Shaman can reap its (admittedly limited) benefit. I think Oath Runes and Marks should also work this way, but that's a topic for another forum.
- Golden Aura and Nuthin' But Da WAAAGH! are candidates for worst 11 point spec tactics in the game, in my opinion. They need overhauled, or Shield of Saphery and Don' Feel Nuthin need to be buffed substantially in order for these tactics to be made more useful by proxy.
- Expanded Control and Waaagh! Frenzy could be made to change Balance Essence/I'll Take That! to group heals. This buff can be offset by moving these tactics to the 11 point slot, and decreasing the effectiveness of the lifetaps slightly when slotting them.
- Arcing Power should also work off of HoTs, though at decreased effectiveness. This tactic, upon any such change, should then be mirrored to the Shaman.
- The AM/Shaman mechanic could be better made to accommodate lifetap healers by making it work off a strict -5 to 5 scale, as opposed to 0 to 5 in either direction, and having spells either add or subtract one point upon execution. This could enable AM/Shaman to have good burst healing in their lifetap specs via instant and hastened lifetaps, while also giving them a reason to use the other half of their abilities.

I think that was all of them. Now, I'm not saying that all of these changes should be made at once, but I think one or two, or maybe most/all of them incrementally until the spec is made viable, would definitely be a step toward the right direction.

EDIT: After thinking a little while about it, I see how Nuthin' But Da WAAAGH! could actually be a good tactic (throw the bubble on a RDPS out of harm's way, or the Shaman itself for a nice on-demand damage buff), so I guess my above suggestion is only really for Golden Aura.

[Sigimund]

I have been focusing on Vaul AM in RoR and it is actually pretty good as a healing spec. A lot of the problems I thought I would have turned out to be ok with better gear and more experience. The biggest problem at the moment is definitely AOE healing and I don't see this improving much at all in T4.

I was saving this for the balance forum but it is basically the same thing a lot of others are saying:

Proposal: Vaul/Da Green to have lifetap AOE healing.
--Version 1: Transfer Force/Bleed Fer' Me to heal whole party.
--Version 2: Arcing Power to heal whole party, mirror to Shaman (could replace You Really Got Nuthin).
--Version 3: Arcing Power to heal whole party, Bleed Fer' Me to heal whole party. No mirroring.

Notes:

Spoiler:

Based on experience, I would prefer that the cooldown on TF/BFM not be increased as targets tend to die or get cleansed. If skilled players maintaining the DoT on two targets is seen as a real threat to balance then reduce the duration but keep the cd at 10s, there is already enough counterplay for this ability.

If the Arcing Power route is taken and found to be too weak it could be tweaked to proc off DoTs as well. If it is too strong it could be adjusted to only heal AOE on Vaul/Da Green abilities and heal ST the rest of the time.

The change is more targeted at Vaul/Da Green but Asuryan/Gork specs might be seen as more useful and less selfish in group play without impacting solo at all.

Players specced in Vaul/Da Green up to EoV/FoDG could queue for scenarios as full healers. This would relieve pressure on the system and result in faster queues for everyone.

If MAD is solved, the TF/BFM version gives Isha/Mork a group HoT.

BoI/GR is available to lifetap specs but is weak and inefficient. It also takes you out of the lifetap spec and playstyle to achieve what should be a core competency of any healer, AOE healing. Relying on the mechanic (even with potential MAD buffs) and M2 is too unreliable and is still very "offspec". It would feel more like a complete system if the mechanic dumps supplemented AOE healing without being your only source.

Proposal: In addition to current effect each point of Tranquility/Gork's Waaagh grants a buff to int/spell power/spellcrit equal to 20% of wp/heal power/healcrit on gear. Each point of Force/Mork's Waaagh buffs wp/heal power/healcrit.
--Concept is the same as RP/Zealot stances but applied to the current mechanic.

Notes:

Spoiler:

Makes the mechanic useful without forcing anybody to change their playstyle. DPS specs already use the mechanic for some light self/off healing. It would certainly not solve AOE healing issues for Vaul/Da Green. The real benefit would be to Isha/Mork.

Isha/Mork will be able to use AP drains more reliably. AP management is an issue for shamans. AMs won't care although they may feel less tied to certain tactics.

Isha/Mork will be able to use heal debuffs reliably if they spec for them. This falls under group utility and could make them more attractive in certain comps or even open up the meta a little for DPS classes that do not have this debuff.

If TF/BFM heals the party, this grants Isha/Mork an AOE HoT.

Cleansing Flare/Geddoff will become a bit more reliable.

No overhaul needed, just a couple of baby steps to make things work without being disruptive to the game or affecting most players playstyles.

[footpatrol2]

@jaycub

1st

There's a couple of things. When I'm playing healing mode on my shaman I distribute somewhat evenly on intel and willpower with one side being slightly higher. I did this also when I played a AM. I'll make a /assist macro and attach it to a high dps class. Constantly heal but watch my offensive target. Sometimes its incredibly hard to kill a target that is getting focused healed and there is a sliver of health left (in my opinion) especially in a high competitive environment. I'll then use if I don't have a intense amount of pressure put on the group at the time, Drop AE snare/Bunch o' Waaagh to help finish the target and Usually the target goes down. Not that this matters but I'll have 2nd or 3rd highest healing and 2nd or 3rd highest death blows. What I'm trying to say with this is all the healing classes have damage abilities. Just because your the dedicated healer doesn't mean your not suppose to put in assisting dps.

2nd.

I keep seeing people talk about balance from a 6 man perspective. I understand this perspective. I sat in this perspective for a long time also It is the easiest group to reliably set up. But a 6 man from a premade organizer perspective plays differently then a 12 man, 18 man or 24 man. Most SC's are at 12 man level with some being 6 man or 18 man. At the minimum (in my opinion) balance should be focused at the 12 man and not the 6 man. Sure you can duplicate a 6 man setting for a 2nd robust group but your trading damage for durability. Once you established a solid group for healing/rezing you can ease up on your robustness and focus more on damage and support healers if you wanted too. The additional 6+ don't have to be as robust and tanks aren't nearly as needed but can be used for more durability. This becomes (in my opinion) EXTREMELY apparent at the 18/24 man level. It is my belief (opinion) that this game was balanced at the 24 man level due to its focus of RVR and not SC's in its original game design. But I understand that people may not see it in this light. But (in my opinion) to stop the meta at the 6 man really does this game a dis-service.

What I'm trying to say is group compositions are not nearly as rigid as they are made out to be if you expand to 6+ group settings. It is my opinion that some of these "deemed" underpowered builds become a lot more important after the first 6 have been established. I'd really hate to see more mirror pushing from the community like mythic was doing. Again opinion.

Hopefully I don't come off as attacking. Because its not my intention.

@sigimund
I used to run a vaul AM with marshes and Purely healy AM with marshes for AoE heals in a competitive 6 man setting. Energy of Vaul synergies extremely well with whisper winds from the SM. Depending on how focused we were getting we'd switch in and out Divine fury tactic slot for the Vaul AM. Granted your not spamming AoE heal but since your Vaul you have access to instant rezing and not as amazing as (isha AM) but instant AE heals.