Nerfed buttons problem

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Arbich
Posts: 512

Re: Nerfed buttons problem

Post#21 » Fri Jul 27, 2018 12:25 pm

Hm... long text I don´t agree with, but as a supposedly expert regarding NB you might enlighten me.

The parts I don´t agree with:
Dabbart wrote:
Fri Jul 27, 2018 11:35 am
NB doesn't let you avoid any GcD or positional check.
Did they remove the possibility to make the use of which skill depended on your position to the emeny? If not, there is your avoidance of positional check. Specifically the visual check how you are positioned to the enemy.
Dabbart wrote:
Fri Jul 27, 2018 11:35 am
You don't even need to cast the spell. Just click target the person twice and Enemy will cast the spell you want. Set the spells you constantly cast on allies to Click Cast, and you can remove them from your action bar entirely!
You said it yourself "allies"... clicking on allies instead of using hotkeys for it is worse anyway.
Dabbart wrote:
Fri Jul 27, 2018 11:35 am
But configuring a string with NB is cheating... What string? Please, tell me. What particular string is "cheating"?
First, I don´t call it cheating. Example for WH (unless they removed it, enlighten me^^). The extra off cooldown ability out of stealth (so usually torment) is fairly hard to perform without a pre set cast sequence.
Dabbart wrote:
Fri Jul 27, 2018 11:35 am
But seeing when every enemy around you loses their CC immunities is HUGE.
Have conditionals that check automatically for you if the target has immunity is even better.

Dabbart wrote:
Fri Jul 27, 2018 11:35 am
Question to players who don't use NB or cast sequence, or anything similar... How many HotKeys for Potions/class buffs do you have? I have 2 AP pots, 2 health pots, 1 absorp pot, 2 armor pots(blue and green), stat pot, liniment pot +AM/Sham resis buff. That's 10 keys I am able to condense to 5. It's about functionality and QoL, not "cheating". This game has a GcD that provides plenty of time between abilities to determine the next correct action to take, NB doesn't increase the amount of abilities you can use in a given time frame, and if you build long strings then it will quite often NOT do what you actually want to do in that particular situation...
Well ok, but I think you can live without a hotkey for 30-60min pots.
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anarchypark
Posts: 1328

Re: Nerfed buttons problem

Post#22 » Fri Jul 27, 2018 12:32 pm

afaik NB can make you 1.1 gcd ( or whatever that number ) shorter than 1.5 on screen.
no timing needs, just spam buttons and NB make it happen.
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Dabbart
Posts: 1970

Re: Nerfed buttons problem

Post#23 » Fri Jul 27, 2018 12:41 pm

Spoiler:
Arbich wrote:
Fri Jul 27, 2018 12:25 pm
Hm... long text I don´t agree with, but as a supposedly expert regarding NB you might enlighten me.

The parts I don´t agree with:
Dabbart wrote:
Fri Jul 27, 2018 11:35 am
NB doesn't let you avoid any GcD or positional check.
Did they remove the possibility to make the use of which skill depended on your position to the emeny? If not, there is your avoidance of positional check. Specifically the visual check how you are positioned to the enemy.
Dabbart wrote:
Fri Jul 27, 2018 11:35 am
You don't even need to cast the spell. Just click target the person twice and Enemy will cast the spell you want. Set the spells you constantly cast on allies to Click Cast, and you can remove them from your action bar entirely!
You said it yourself "allies"... clicking on allies instead of using hotkeys for it is worse anyway.
Dabbart wrote:
Fri Jul 27, 2018 11:35 am
But configuring a string with NB is cheating... What string? Please, tell me. What particular string is "cheating"?
First, I don´t call it cheating. Example for WH (unless they removed it, enlighten me^^). The extra off cooldown ability out of stealth (so usually torment) is fairly hard to perform without a pre set cast sequence.
Dabbart wrote:
Fri Jul 27, 2018 11:35 am
But seeing when every enemy around you loses their CC immunities is HUGE.
Have conditionals that check automatically for you if the target has immunity is even better.

Dabbart wrote:
Fri Jul 27, 2018 11:35 am
Question to players who don't use NB or cast sequence, or anything similar... How many HotKeys for Potions/class buffs do you have? I have 2 AP pots, 2 health pots, 1 absorp pot, 2 armor pots(blue and green), stat pot, liniment pot +AM/Sham resis buff. That's 10 keys I am able to condense to 5. It's about functionality and QoL, not "cheating". This game has a GcD that provides plenty of time between abilities to determine the next correct action to take, NB doesn't increase the amount of abilities you can use in a given time frame, and if you build long strings then it will quite often NOT do what you actually want to do in that particular situation...
Well ok, but I think you can live without a hotkey for 30-60min pots.
1, NB Still has to make the positional check. It doesn't let you use a Behind the enemy only while facing their front, that is what I meant and what I said. I don't know how you get that NB avoids any positional check, but it doesn't. Oh, and if you have NB set to work on facing the Rear of your enemy, you get to watch NB flip back and forth between abilities if your opponent is a good strafer, and you'll have a pain of a time getting anything to go off properly... The delay on NB precludes it's use for alot of these in real time combat.

2, Not really, considering you have to Target that player anyways. IE, clicking on them... My point is still correct though, Enemy allows you to Click cast multiple types of spells in a preconfigured way, using the same mouse button for multiple different spells or to let "enemy do the thinking for you" so to speak. WHich is what I was responding to. Unless ofc you have more Hotkeys for targeting your groupmates/WB members...

3, No it isn't. You set your main Stealth ability to the same Key you have your KD(or whatever you want to attack right after leaving stealth with) and spam that button. You get your opener and KD instantly. No addons required. And many people have called it cheating in this thread. I'm not just specifically talking to you.

4, Good point. But in that case, NB is doing something that you could do yourself(ie watching the timers for a single target). Buffhead/Enemy still provide information you wouldn't be able to possess without them.

5, Way to avoid the question entirely. And no, I don't want to open my backpack and click on a pot every time. That is why we have Hotkeys. Btw, I purposefully ignored the keys required to swap Gear/tactics since that can be done with another Addon(ClosetGoblin) but they count as well...

And no, I am NOT an expert on NB. I never said anything even close to that, I even mentioned how little I think of my Macro knowledge/ability. I just have quite a bit of experience with NB, and have spent quite a lot of time testing it out and trying things. Mostly, that end up breaking my UI. It's unfortunate that seemingly every single person who hates it, has never even tried it, and therefore doesn't really know/understand it...


And right on Queue AnarchyPark proves my last point for me...NB doesn't allow you to bypass or alter the servers GcD... That's just wrong...

Edit:
Spoiler:
Lileldys wrote:
Fri Jul 27, 2018 12:43 pm
anarchypark wrote:
Fri Jul 27, 2018 12:32 pm
afaik NB can make you 1.1 gcd ( or whatever that number ) shorter than 1.5 on screen.
no timing needs, just spam buttons and NB make it happen.
Thats because gcd here is 1.1s + Delay to server.
Is correct, check this postfor confirmation: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=19268&p=212439&hilit=GCD#p212439
Last edited by Dabbart on Fri Jul 27, 2018 12:50 pm, edited 6 times in total.

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Lileldys
Posts: 622

Re: Nerfed buttons problem

Post#24 » Fri Jul 27, 2018 12:43 pm

anarchypark wrote:
Fri Jul 27, 2018 12:32 pm
afaik NB can make you 1.1 gcd ( or whatever that number ) shorter than 1.5 on screen.
no timing needs, just spam buttons and NB make it happen.
Thats because gcd here is 1.1s + Delay to server.
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Tesq
Suspended
Posts: 5346

Re: Nerfed buttons problem

Post#25 » Fri Jul 27, 2018 12:53 pm

The only class litteraly that will suffer from NB removal is IB you cant play IB with all those 10 sec refresh stuff without it. I have 3 nb keys with ONLY self buffing stuff on my ib xD ( 3 skill each with 2x fir every skill to keep up buff on me and oathfriend)

My bg dont even need NB, my bw dont my ch not just im lazy and bind 2 skill once...

Positional chek is a joke it dont work well with NB it leads to worst results than good one, idk for other settings because i use nb for very base function all the time for self defense skill / buff.

Any other class can totally function at max potential without NB
Last edited by Tesq on Fri Jul 27, 2018 12:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Sigimund
Posts: 658

Re: Nerfed buttons problem

Post#26 » Fri Jul 27, 2018 12:56 pm

SWTOR banned all ui mods. People ended up spending £££ on Razer products.

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Telperien
Posts: 548

Re: Nerfed buttons problem

Post#27 » Fri Jul 27, 2018 12:58 pm

anarchypark wrote:
Fri Jul 27, 2018 12:32 pm
afaik NB can make you 1.1 gcd ( or whatever that number ) shorter than 1.5 on screen.
no timing needs, just spam buttons and NB make it happen.

Let's say you got 3 skills on a chain: broadhead arrow, shadow sting and Spiral-fletched arrow. You add conditional for dots to not repeat themselves. If you spam that key, all u may get is reapplying skill on top of stack or have a chance to trigger last one. Skill on top of stack is refreshing every NB coded GCD, not the actual used by server.
Slacking (checking out EvE)

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davispeed
Legacy RR80
Posts: 393

Re: Nerfed buttons problem

Post#28 » Fri Jul 27, 2018 1:00 pm

Carcasov wrote:
Thu Jul 26, 2018 5:49 pm
My nerfed buttons is not cheating sequences only on 1 character, any idea how to fix it, guys?
fixed
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Dabbart
Posts: 1970

Re: Nerfed buttons problem

Post#29 » Fri Jul 27, 2018 1:05 pm

Spoiler:
davispeed wrote:
Fri Jul 27, 2018 1:00 pm
Carcasov wrote:
Thu Jul 26, 2018 5:49 pm
My nerfed buttons is not cheating sequences only on 1 character, any idea how to fix it, guys?
fixed
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I kid....

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Darosh
Banned
Posts: 1198

Re: Nerfed buttons problem

Post#30 » Fri Jul 27, 2018 1:08 pm

Dabbart wrote:
Fri Jul 27, 2018 11:35 am
Spoiler:
I mean, seriously... Everything else being equal, the difference between a 6man using Enemy and Buffhead vs a 6man that is not is HUGE. The difference between NB users and non, is negligable. The NB users don't have access to information non-users pysically can't access. NB doesn't let you avoid any GcD or positional check. I understand people are viciously against it, but just repeating that it is cheating because of strings is... Ignorant.

Go check out Enemy. Go to configuration, and Unit Frames. Go fiddle around with the Click Casting, and tell me that isn't the same damn thing. I can configure it to cast different spells on each Click (Rclick, Lclick, Middle Mouse, and Shift+, Alt+, Ctrl+) with a different spell for each class type(tank/DPS/healer) or for all types except for that one... Enemy decides for you what you cast with each click, depending on whom you are clicking on. All preconfigured. I feel sure with some digging you could add some basic work-arounds to function as conditionals as well.

You don't even need to cast the spell. Just click target the person twice and Enemy will cast the spell you want. Set the spells you constantly cast on allies to Click Cast, and you can remove them from your action bar entirely!

But configuring a string with NB is cheating... What string? Please, tell me. What particular string is "cheating"? The only 2 I have any issue with is the conditional for facing Rear of the enemy. But, having tried to make this work on my WH way back in the day, I can tell you that it quite often just leads to you not getting any attack off, and Bunny Hopping. Bhopping is cancer on a server with the latency issues and teleporting that this one does. The others; Stacking for HoTs/DoTs, HP levels, Mechanic/stance, Virtual Cooldown, etc none of these provide you with anything broken. They just help to avoid utilizing 40+ hotkeys...

And as Lileldys said, NB makes the decision for you based on how you built it. The difference between building a cast rotation and pressing 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, vs pressing 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, aint that different. It's the same number of abilities in the same amount of time(or less if NB decides to bug out). But seeing when every enemy around you loses their CC immunities is HUGE. And even with cast sequence you can still build Macro's to do basically the same thing... I'm not a Macro expert by any means, but I know you didn't even technically need NB during live to build an attack sequence.

Question to players who don't use NB or cast sequence, or anything similar... How many HotKeys for Potions/class buffs do you have? I have 2 AP pots, 2 health pots, 1 absorp pot, 2 armor pots(blue and green), stat pot, liniment pot +AM/Sham resis buff. That's 10 keys I am able to condense to 5. It's about functionality and QoL, not "cheating". This game has a GcD that provides plenty of time between abilities to determine the next correct action to take, NB doesn't increase the amount of abilities you can use in a given time frame, and if you build long strings then it will quite often NOT do what you actually want to do in that particular situation...


Edit: I should say though, that NB and similar addons make it far easier to Bot with than without. And NB basically enabled Multi-boxing to grow to the lvl it was on Live. But targetting Macro's and tying a few abilities together can be accomplished w/o these addons, so it's not like removing NB will end all Botting/cheating.

However, Yes. NB can directly be used to Cheat via Botting. But, it is the botting that is the cheating, but the NB usage...
After having tried NB on my tiny RP alt, my biggest grudge with NB has shifted from conditional checks to the elimination of human error in execution rather than assessment, fumbling hotykeys in the heat of an engagement might seem trivial but it's part of the game (e.g.: fatfingering, missclicking, premature casting - spam casting that is partly prompted by input lag/latency,...).

You can set NB up to block unnecessary casts (e.g.: HoT coverage, w/e) - the most simple way being to slap an instance of AA into the string, at its very end (it checks for conditions and defaults to AA instead of cycling back).
If I were to transfer that onto a tank and guard... the risk of nasty guard drops and failed swaps (e.g.: frequent due hardswaps, solo tanking, w/e) that make or break engagements is eliminated.

You have to (hard)swap from Bob to Jeff and happen to missclick/spamcast/fatfinger Guard before you swapped friendly targets - Jeff dies because he didn't receive guard in time, Bob likely dies next, either because Jeff was the only healer around or because he is next in line and you happen to hit guard a tiny bit faster than you manage to swap friendly target, again.
Maybe Bob died alongside Jeff, because you had to make a call and prioritize ... and because for a GCD neither of them had guard because fingers.
~ Target has no Guard? Cast Guard. Target has Guard? Cast AA.

I'd say the translation from thought to action and the error margin therein is just as important as the thought alone; unterstanding why/that X ,Y Z has to happen != making it happen consistently.

Abbd.:
Tesq wrote:
Fri Jul 27, 2018 12:53 pm
The only class litteraly that will suffer from NB removal is IB you cant play IB with all those 10 sec refresh stuff without it. I have 3 nb keys with ONLY self buffing stuff on my
Uh, G600 would like to have a word with you.
Last edited by Darosh on Fri Jul 27, 2018 1:17 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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