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Order OP - gameplay from first 5 weeks of city sieges

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wonshot
Posts: 1101

Re: Order OP - gameplay from first 5 weeks of city sieges

Post#11 » Sat Jan 09, 2021 2:02 am

Aurandilaz wrote: Fri Jan 08, 2021 9:45 pm Video showcases just how absurdly strong Order can be when running proper setups. Most of the morale options have been nerfed since thing, so now you no longer can dumpster the enemy as fast as before.
Setup surely will take you so far, but actually having competent players and experienced shotcalling will make a solid setup really shine. Two things TUP have been close to uncontested on from the other warband guilds the last year or so (not counting more of smallerscale focused players here as they mostly know their **** and will put average warband players to shame)

Wam probably has more experience than any other warbandleader on the server right now, and some of the Damagedealers TUP had in the past years, and also on City-siege launch were just leagues ahead of most competition.

Rolgrom as an example, since I mostly did my cities with him, didnt have near Wam's experience and the players available for him to use were at times below average. Even if he was actually one of the first to follow the footsteps of Live city siege comps, where it also started with heavy caster bombing and evolved into more melee meta and clubbing down ap-healers. The player quality just simply pulled the comp down and results along with it.

Fenryl ran his /5 warbands on order, and showed that singletarget assist groups was the way along with enough criticalmass to break a ress train. Syphon M2 became a skill test on healers to outmatch an unnerfed morale bomb, and all three archtypes of tanks, healers and damagedealers had to improve on their gameplay from orvr zerg(busting). where it was more about stacking criticalmass, frontal mitigation and picking your fights. Where as in cities many were faced with a culture shock facing scenario players, healers had to crossheal to catch any enemy assist focus, tanks had to do more than hold the line and challenge, now they need to interrupt, cc correctly and assist.

For many who were not experienced raiders and in rag-tag rosters they simply got overwhelmed despite running 2-2-2 and on deemed warband viable classes. So while I agree that comp matters, the leadership experience and quality of the roster for sure plays a big part. If the core is solid you can build on it and to some extend carry the fillers.

And that is probably why we saw in the early months of city, why smallscalers in general had way better succes and despite correct meta comps inexperienced warband leaders had to play catchup.

Nice video, the addon overuse makes the game hard to recognize and seems to atleast make the footage seem laggy.
(my own favorit moment from that periode of time was being so sleepy that i made an "/invite [Name]" macro instead of an assist macro and wondering entire instance why it wouldnt work lol)
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Sponn
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Re: Order OP - gameplay from first 5 weeks of city sieges

Post#12 » Sat Jan 09, 2021 11:24 am

Man I love the destro lobbyists on these forums. When asking for relative actual meta data (like city winrates since the inception of city) and seeing destro winning most of them destro cry "omg l2p it is a l2p issue lol just learn HOW TO PLAY OMG LEARN HOW TO PLAY, YOU MUST LEARN, HOW, TO, PLAY" but when trying to vy for "ZOMG ORDER OP" it is always cherry picked data sets/screenshots/videos.

Jesus christ, not like data matters anymore I guess. Lemme just live in my own bubble of Order being a boogey man and so OP!

BTW right now Destro have another 58% pop advantage in t2+. LOL what a bunch of cucks.

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zumos2
Posts: 431

Re: Order OP - gameplay from first 5 weeks of city sieges

Post#13 » Sat Jan 09, 2021 12:26 pm

Sponn wrote: Sat Jan 09, 2021 11:24 am Man I love the destro lobbyists on these forums. When asking for relative actual meta data (like city winrates since the inception of city) and seeing destro winning most of them destro cry "omg l2p it is a l2p issue lol just learn HOW TO PLAY OMG LEARN HOW TO PLAY, YOU MUST LEARN, HOW, TO, PLAY" but when trying to vy for "ZOMG ORDER OP" it is always cherry picked data sets/screenshots/videos.

Jesus christ, not like data matters anymore I guess. Lemme just live in my own bubble of Order being a boogey man and so OP!

BTW right now Destro have another 58% pop advantage in t2+. LOL what a bunch of cucks.
Data is only valuable if you are able to interpret in a proper way. If you believe that raw data such as overall win percentage in cities is directly correlated with organised warband vs warband balance between destruction and order than you should probably stay away from the data in the first place. And before you accuse me of being a "destro lobbyist", I probably have played 3x more order than I have played destruction on RoR, so spare me the salt.
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Current Guilds: The Unlikely Plan - Deep and Dry - Dark Omen

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Xergon
Posts: 798

Re: Order OP - gameplay from first 5 weeks of city sieges

Post#14 » Sat Jan 09, 2021 3:59 pm

teiloh wrote: Sat Jan 09, 2021 1:44 am
Spoiler:
Xergon wrote: Sat Jan 09, 2021 1:27 am
Elemint wrote: Sat Jan 09, 2021 1:13 am

Yes, it's meant to show how good they are apparently and that it's a L2P issue that order is losing 75% cites. They haven't even played order for like 6 months now

so whats that ?


Click here to watch on YouTube


Also RIP AoE WH
2 Exalted Defenses proc in first 2:53, and you managed to get off 2 group heals while they were active

META

ORDER HEAL ADVANTAGE!
Not like it doesnt affect ST heals or Hots aswell, oh wait, it does...
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Charon
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Re: Order OP - gameplay from first 5 weeks of city sieges

Post#15 » Sat Jan 09, 2021 4:19 pm

Ok ..from different side ..why are you doing that TUP-s..Its some attempt to show your guild skill ..Do you really need that. Or maybe your aim is to do something to prevent any possible positive changes for order (conspiracy theory). Pre edited vod Xerg......... to fight in doks you had to wipe in mid (where is this part) and really you were very lucky sometimes;).
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Xergon
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Re: Order OP - gameplay from first 5 weeks of city sieges

Post#16 » Sat Jan 09, 2021 4:41 pm

Charon wrote: Sat Jan 09, 2021 4:19 pm Ok ..from different side ..why are you doing that TUP-s..Its some attempt to show your guild skill ..Do you really need that. Or maybe your aim is to do something to prevent any possible positive changes for order (conspiracy theory). Pre edited vod Xerg......... to fight in doks you had to wipe in mid (where is this part) and really you were very lucky sometimes;).
I started recording after 1st fight... i know big big conspiracy...

I dont think post of those videos is to prove any point, although it does show that class/realm balance is less an issue than players itself.
I know there are more Order groups who are be able to fight destro on even ground if not even winning with less problems.
You can watch it and figure out what to do, or not watch it and still blame class balance as an main reason for losing... choice is yours.
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Aurandilaz
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Re: Order OP - gameplay from first 5 weeks of city sieges

Post#17 » Sat Jan 09, 2021 4:54 pm

Charon wrote: Sat Jan 09, 2021 4:19 pm Ok ..from different side ..why are you doing that TUP-s..Its some attempt to show your guild skill ..Do you really need that. Or maybe your aim is to do something to prevent any possible positive changes for order (conspiracy theory). Pre edited vod Xerg......... to fight in doks you had to wipe in mid (where is this part) and really you were very lucky sometimes;).
Honest reason? My hard drives were getting full because I have 2-3terabytes of recordings from 2020 city sieges/guild raids and I need to make room for future recording, so it was either delete all and make room, or finally spend my christmas weeks going through old footage and editing out scenes to complete the video I had planned circa 10 months ago but got bored.
Gurf wrote: Sat Jan 09, 2021 12:15 am If order formed a warband with 5 BW now they would probably lose to pugs. None of the videos even feature the mythic "Slayer Train" . Is this meant to show something?
I only grinded Slayer up to 2 piece SOV (so I could run 7inv 2 sov before they nerfed it) then I got bored and started playing WL more during summer/autumn. We had some 3-6 slayer trains in some later cities, but most of those cities were pugstomps that were just not worth recording.
And yeah, too many BWs not too optimal for city setups, as we see in the first video where PNP is winning against us due to us running too many BWs and not enough melee, until we get more room to fight in S3 and my Slayer + WL player are able to hunt healers freely. (our assist train was noob tier, but we have improved bit since, from lessons learned)

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zumos2
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Re: Order OP - gameplay from first 5 weeks of city sieges

Post#18 » Sat Jan 09, 2021 6:31 pm

Elemint wrote: Fri Jan 08, 2021 11:26 pm Nitpicked cities from a year ago, are you serious? Cherry picked instances against opponents that never stood a chance. Since that time order has only been nerfed, while destruction keeps getting order unique abilities mirrored.
Here is a video for you then. This was about 2 months ago against FMJ. I read on the forums they are the best Destruction guild, so if Destro is so OP they must have beaten us there.


Click here to watch on YouTube

Elemint wrote: Fri Jan 08, 2021 11:26 pm But TuP will always swap to the overperforming realm then say it's actually underdog, nothing new there.
So when we played Order you believe order was overperforming? Interesting.. And when we swap to Destro suddenly Destro is overperforming. And when we were playing Destro before Order they were OP. Weird .. very weird. And btw, many of us play both sides still. Last week TUP raided one day on Order and one day on Destro. Also I played much much more Order than Destro on this server, so spare me the 'I'm biased bs'.

Anyway I believe the balance on an organised lvl between Destro and Order is quite good at the moment. That means optimal setup vs optimal setup. The problem of Order always was (even before cities were a thing) that their average pug setup is way further away from the optimal Order setup than the average Destro pug setup is away from Destro optimal setup. You could call it a L2P issue, but players have a choice to play classes that are already in abundance or that don't fit (in larger numbers) into the end game content. Can you have 1 WH in your city warband? Ye, but no more. Can you have a godly AM in your city warband? Absolutely, but if you bring 3/4 scrub AMs they will become a massive reliability etc etc.
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teiloh
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Re: Order OP - gameplay from first 5 weeks of city sieges

Post#19 » Sat Jan 09, 2021 7:56 pm

Xergon wrote: Sat Jan 09, 2021 3:59 pm Not like it doesnt affect ST heals or Hots aswell, oh wait, it does...
Your midline positioning meant that you managed to get 2 ST heals with ED up in the first few seconds of the fight. But yes it would add approximately 90 points of healing, per person, to your HOTs.

Aka similar healing compared to a Black Orc using You Got Nuffin. ED is situationally very strong but requires a lot of support and precise positioning to get the most out of.
Last edited by teiloh on Thu Jan 14, 2021 8:12 am, edited 1 time in total.

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teiloh
Posts: 691

Re: Order OP - gameplay from first 5 weeks of city sieges

Post#20 » Sat Jan 09, 2021 8:05 pm

zumos2 wrote: Sat Jan 09, 2021 6:31 pm
Elemint wrote: Fri Jan 08, 2021 11:26 pm Nitpicked cities from a year ago, are you serious? Cherry picked instances against opponents that never stood a chance. Since that time order has only been nerfed, while destruction keeps getting order unique abilities mirrored.
Here is a video for you then. This was about 2 months ago against FMJ. I read on the forums they are the best Destruction guild, so if Destro is so OP they must have beaten us there.
Elemint wrote: Fri Jan 08, 2021 11:26 pm But TuP will always swap to the overperforming realm then say it's actually underdog, nothing new there.
So when we played Order you believe order was overperforming? Interesting.. And when we swap to Destro suddenly Destro is overperforming. And when we were playing Destro before Order they were OP. Weird .. very weird. And btw, many of us play both sides still. Last week TUP raided one day on Order and one day on Destro. Also I played much much more Order than Destro on this server, so spare me the 'I'm biased bs'.

Anyway I believe the balance on an organised lvl between Destro and Order is quite good at the moment. That means optimal setup vs optimal setup. The problem of Order always was (even before cities were a thing) that their average pug setup is way further away from the optimal Order setup than the average Destro pug setup is away from Destro optimal setup. You could call it a L2P issue, but players have a choice to play classes that are already in abundance or that don't fit (in larger numbers) into the end game content. Can you have 1 WH in your city warband? Ye, but no more. Can you have a godly AM in your city warband? Absolutely, but if you bring 3/4 scrub AMs they will become a massive reliability etc etc.
Not to be adversarial, but what exactly is your 2h Knight bringing to any WB that a BG or Chosen doesn't offer? This is just a balance question, not an attack.

It looks like in those fights, ED was not proccing for WPs, and they were determined long before 20s Rampage could kick in or matter. So what was the Order advantage that caused you to win over whoever you were fighting, as you seem to be implying?

You definitely did not face the optimal Destro setup there, which involves multiple SHs using OMW and several Zealots of WOI, and usually a Magus or more. Destro is so strong that they don't even bother bringing out their best.

I won't disagree though, that the top "perceived" meta for Destro and Order are fairly close, it's just that it's much harder to build (AND play) for Order. So unless you have consistent practice with a core of players, its going to be rough in a way that it's not for Destro.

Fix these things and we'll actually close the gap significantly:

1) Providing some sort of ranged, 100% uptime 360 elemental debuff for BW as it is done for Sorcs
2) Equalizing CD reducers/increasers
3) Reversing a lot of the over-the-top nerfs to Knights
4) Equalizing morale builders
5) Equalizing speed boosts
6) Equalizing CC

There are a ton of other "small" differences that add up but we can leave those for later.

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