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Patch Notes 22/07/2021

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Caduceus
Posts: 407

Re: Patch Notes 22/07/2021

Post#141 » Sun Jul 25, 2021 3:16 pm

sogeou wrote:
Sun Jul 25, 2021 2:58 pm

If they buffed BW all the whines in this thread would just change OMG anything BUFF for OP order.

Pretty much all serious players I know share the opinion that ST BW is even worse off in Ranked than Sorc, and can back this up with facts/experience/data, etc. Threads have been made detailing the issues, presenting solutions, etc.

Players that cry about OP ST BW are the same type of people that cry about OP ST Sorc: players who get time-stamped because they are slow, unaware, unsupported, etc.

Their cries don't matter, because they're unsubstantiated, so this is hardly any kind of justification for the nerf that is on the table now.

sogeou wrote:
Sun Jul 25, 2021 2:58 pm

Nothing changes really with fixing the sorcs tactic from stacking. You lose 10% extra damage, and remember everyone says NO sorcs use this tactic. So, should not be a problem at all.

Though I am not sure where that 10% figure comes from, 10% is an absolutely massive difference. Why do you think Bloodlord with its 5% damage increase is BiS for virtually every DPS class?

And I use Shadow of Disaster in my ST specs, and I know other Sorcs in Ranked use it too. In fact, I find it hard to think of a workable ST Sorc spec that doesn't use it.

The statement that "no sorcs use this tactics" is rather suspect. People who make it likely know little about Sorc. The fact that you're even willing to parrot such statements also makes me doubt how much you know about Sorc.
"I watched a snail crawl along the edge of a straight razor. That's my dream; that's my nightmare. Crawling, slithering, along the edge of a straight razor... and surviving." - Colonel Walter E. Kurtz

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sogeou
Posts: 396

Re: Patch Notes 22/07/2021

Post#142 » Sun Jul 25, 2021 3:51 pm

Caduceus wrote:
Sun Jul 25, 2021 3:16 pm
sogeou wrote:
Sun Jul 25, 2021 2:58 pm

If they buffed BW all the whines in this thread would just change OMG anything BUFF for OP order.

Pretty much all serious players I know share the opinion that ST BW is even worse off in Ranked than Sorc, and can back this up with facts/experience/data, etc. Threads have been made detailing the issues, presenting solutions, etc.

Players that cry about OP ST BW are the same type of people that cry about OP ST Sorc: players who get time-stamped because they are slow, unaware, unsupported, etc.

Their cries don't matter, because they're unsubstantiated, so this is hardly any kind of justification for the nerf that is on the table now.

sogeou wrote:
Sun Jul 25, 2021 2:58 pm

Nothing changes really with fixing the sorcs tactic from stacking. You lose 10% extra damage, and remember everyone says NO sorcs use this tactic. So, should not be a problem at all.

Though I am not sure where that 10% figure comes from, 10% is an absolutely massive difference. Why do you think Bloodlord with its 5% damage increase is BiS for virtually every DPS class?

And I use Shadow of Disaster in my ST specs, and I know other Sorcs in Ranked use it too. In fact, I find it hard to think of a workable ST Sorc spec that doesn't use it.

The statement that "no sorcs use this tactics" is rather suspect. People who make it likely know little about Sorc. The fact that you're even willing to parrot such statements also makes me doubt how much you know about Sorc.

Other sorcs were saying that no other sorcs use it. SDK was another sorc saying bad sorcs use it and something about only useful for killing pugs. Go look at the bombling thread about sorcs / BW. All sorcs saying no sorcs use it. Now all sorcs use it lol. 10% is not that big of a deal. That is not that much of a nerf / fix. Other adjustments or fixes have been 20% or higher.

Sulorie
Posts: 5650

Re: Patch Notes 22/07/2021

Post#143 » Sun Jul 25, 2021 3:58 pm

Caduceus wrote:
Sun Jul 25, 2021 12:17 pm
2. What people do take issue with, is the fact that the devs decided to go beyond simply fixing this bug, and (erroneously) started to treat Shadow of Disaster as an ability instead of a tactic, thus not letting it stack with Chosen auras and other abilities that reduce resistance. That is a significant and completely misplaced nerf of ST Sorc, considering the class is and has been struggling in competitive play.
Wow man, SoD was always applied onto a skill. Therefore the debuff is supposed to be treated as an ability. By using the tactic, Chillwind gets an additional effect. This is the case since live days.
Only the highest debuff of a skill is taken into account, if there are more than one on a target. Same goes for other skills with similar effect.

When there are cases, where they indeed stack, then those were individual balance decisions. For the ease of understanding, especially for new players, I don't agree with those decisions, as they those make stacking rules overly confusing, while in general they are pretty simple.
Dying is no option.

Caduceus
Posts: 407

Re: Patch Notes 22/07/2021

Post#144 » Sun Jul 25, 2021 4:02 pm

Sulorie wrote:
Sun Jul 25, 2021 3:58 pm
Caduceus wrote:
Sun Jul 25, 2021 12:17 pm
2. What people do take issue with, is the fact that the devs decided to go beyond simply fixing this bug, and (erroneously) started to treat Shadow of Disaster as an ability instead of a tactic, thus not letting it stack with Chosen auras and other abilities that reduce resistance. That is a significant and completely misplaced nerf of ST Sorc, considering the class is and has been struggling in competitive play.
Wow man, SoD was always applied onto a skill. Therefore the debuff is supposed to be treated as an ability. By using the tactic, Chillwind gets an additional effect. This is the case since live days.
Only the highest debuff of a skill is taken into account, if there are more than one on a target. Same goes for other skills with similar effect.

When there are cases, where they indeed stack, then those were individual balance decisions. For the ease of understanding, especially for new players, I don't agree with those decisions, as they those make stacking rules overly confusing, while in general they are pretty simple.

Already refuted:

Caduceus wrote:
Sun Jul 25, 2021 1:11 pm

Tactics that add buffs or debuffs directly to a spell belong in the tactics group, "whether applied directly or indirectly" as stated in the 2015 post by Azarael. Note that as an example it states Warping the Spirit which does both, and both should be treated as belonging to the tactics group.

There is no mention of inheriting groups.
"I watched a snail crawl along the edge of a straight razor. That's my dream; that's my nightmare. Crawling, slithering, along the edge of a straight razor... and surviving." - Colonel Walter E. Kurtz

Caduceus
Posts: 407

Re: Patch Notes 22/07/2021

Post#145 » Sun Jul 25, 2021 4:06 pm

sogeou wrote:
Sun Jul 25, 2021 3:51 pm


Other sorcs were saying that no other sorcs use it. SDK was another sorc saying bad sorcs use it and something about only useful for killing pugs. Go look at the bombling thread about sorcs / BW. All sorcs saying no sorcs use it. Now all sorcs use it lol.


What are the names of these Sorcs? Where are they on the Ranked leaderboard? (Not because the actual rank matters, but because it shows they have at least attempted competitive 6v6).

If you cannot tell me these things, then they're just people yelling random things into the ether, much like you seem to be.

sogeou wrote:
Sun Jul 25, 2021 3:51 pm

10% is not that big of a deal. That is not that much of a nerf / fix. Other adjustments or fixes have been 20% or higher.

This is not an argument. 10% IS a huge deal, and I already pointed out that people consider Bloodlord BiS because of the 5% damage increase, even though it also decreases their defenses 5%.

In other words, +5% damage is so good that not only does it warrant taking Bloodlord over weapons with better stats (for example Fortress Witchstaff gives 2% more crit, has a proc, etc.), but also take a significant hit to one's defenses.

I'm sorry, but the argument that 10% damage is insiginifcant is just hilarious and an argument a serious player would not make.

Furthermore, Sorc did not need ANY kind of nerf. I don't care if the nerf to Sorc damage was 1% as a result of this debacle which I refuse to call a "fix", it would have been a mistake to nerf a class which is and has been struggling at the competitive level for ages.

All non-arguments!
"I watched a snail crawl along the edge of a straight razor. That's my dream; that's my nightmare. Crawling, slithering, along the edge of a straight razor... and surviving." - Colonel Walter E. Kurtz

sogeou
Posts: 396

Re: Patch Notes 22/07/2021

Post#146 » Sun Jul 25, 2021 4:34 pm

Caduceus wrote:
Sun Jul 25, 2021 4:06 pm


What are the names of these Sorcs? Where are they on the Ranked leaderboard? (Not because the actual rank matters, but because it shows they have at least attempted competitive 6v6).

If you cannot tell me these things, then they're just people yelling random things into the ether, much like you seem to be.
I just named one of the people in another thread where they talked about no sorcs using the tactic. There has been so many threads about sorcs and all the pro sorcs say no sorcs use it. But, in all the 6 mans sorcs they all use it.
Caduceus wrote:
Sun Jul 25, 2021 4:06 pm


This is not an argument. 10% IS a huge deal, and I already pointed out that people consider Bloodlord BiS because of the 5% damage increase, even though it also decreases their defenses 5%.

In other words, +5% damage is so good that not only does it warrant taking Bloodlord over weapons with better stats (for example Fortress Witchstaff gives 2% more crit, has a proc, etc.), but also take a significant hit to one's defenses.

I'm sorry, but the argument that 10% damage is insiginifcant is just hilarious and an argument a serious player would not make.

Furthermore, Sorc did not need ANY kind of nerf. I don't care if the nerf to Sorc damage was 1% as a result of this debacle which I refuse to call a "fix", it would have been a mistake to nerf a class which is and has been struggling at the competitive level for ages.

All non-arguments!

10% is not a big deal with regards to a FIX. To where something like riposte was a much greater DPS loss than 10%. Also, dps classes not using flanking is not make or break.

Caduceus
Posts: 407

Re: Patch Notes 22/07/2021

Post#147 » Sun Jul 25, 2021 5:00 pm

sogeou wrote:
Sun Jul 25, 2021 4:34 pm

I just named one of the people in another thread where they talked about no sorcs using the tactic. There has been so many threads about sorcs and all the pro sorcs say no sorcs use it. But, in all the 6 mans sorcs they all use it.

I went through Bombling's thread and did not find Sorcs making that claim. Could you share the specific quotes you are referring to?
"I watched a snail crawl along the edge of a straight razor. That's my dream; that's my nightmare. Crawling, slithering, along the edge of a straight razor... and surviving." - Colonel Walter E. Kurtz

Sulorie
Posts: 5650

Re: Patch Notes 22/07/2021

Post#148 » Sun Jul 25, 2021 6:21 pm

Caduceus wrote:
Sun Jul 25, 2021 4:02 pm
Sulorie wrote:
Sun Jul 25, 2021 3:58 pm
Caduceus wrote:
Sun Jul 25, 2021 12:17 pm
2. What people do take issue with, is the fact that the devs decided to go beyond simply fixing this bug, and (erroneously) started to treat Shadow of Disaster as an ability instead of a tactic, thus not letting it stack with Chosen auras and other abilities that reduce resistance. That is a significant and completely misplaced nerf of ST Sorc, considering the class is and has been struggling in competitive play.
Wow man, SoD was always applied onto a skill. Therefore the debuff is supposed to be treated as an ability. By using the tactic, Chillwind gets an additional effect. This is the case since live days.
Only the highest debuff of a skill is taken into account, if there are more than one on a target. Same goes for other skills with similar effect.

When there are cases, where they indeed stack, then those were individual balance decisions. For the ease of understanding, especially for new players, I don't agree with those decisions, as they those make stacking rules overly confusing, while in general they are pretty simple.

Already refuted:

Caduceus wrote:
Sun Jul 25, 2021 1:11 pm

Tactics that add buffs or debuffs directly to a spell belong in the tactics group, "whether applied directly or indirectly" as stated in the 2015 post by Azarael. Note that as an example it states Warping the Spirit which does both, and both should be treated as belonging to the tactics group.

There is no mention of inheriting groups.
He said that 5-6 years ago and he isn't in the project since years. A lot got reverted and while you mention WtS, the armor buff doesn't stack, most likely for balance reasons, as 1k+ armor with stacking would be huge.
Unlike sorc resist debuff, the tactic causes a tactic proc and does not enhance an ability.
Dying is no option.

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Dabbart
Posts: 2122

Re: Patch Notes 22/07/2021

Post#149 » Sun Jul 25, 2021 7:10 pm

Then why was SW ini stacking via wrist slash neutered and then removed, rather than "bug fixed"? Why do dps sham get to self stack tough debuff with Brain Bursta+You'z Squishy? RP Armor debuff?(Edit: Which when implemented by the Balance Forum Team intended for it to stack, but did not mirror resis debuff as it was considered too OP for order to have a Stacking AoE resis debuff) Z armor/resis debuff? Z+1 can triple debuff resistances/armor with their M1.

How long ago something was stated is kinda irrelevant, or else no one would give a **** how it worked on Live. The fact Aza is no longer with the team means nothing also. If it was Torque, Geni, Dalen, or any other Dev past or present it would be the same. This is how it was intended to work, and has worked for years. If the team wants to change how these things work, fine. But calling how something has intentionally worked a certain way for years a bug, isn't correct. Imo.

This is not the first time this has happened. Again, change whatever needs to be changed for Balance. No issues there. But calling something a Bug that was intentionally input to work a certain way is just wrong.

MB if I am simply being pedantic with this. I am aware it doesn't impact 100's of abilities, or Meta specs. But that's not really the point. Call the change what it is, a balance change. Or, go through and change/check all the tactic altered abilities to ensure they don't stack. Or, give us a straight answer on how the other stackable tactic/abilities are supposed to work and we can bug-report them, plus ask for previous changes to be rolled back(possibly).

I feel like I've asked for that 3-4 times now in this thread... Is this a singular balance change, or how the team wants to move forward in regards to all stacking?
Last edited by Dabbart on Sun Jul 25, 2021 7:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Azarael wrote:
Mon Nov 28, 2016 6:30 pm
It's only a nerf if you're bad.

(see, I can shitpost too!)

sogeou
Posts: 396

Re: Patch Notes 22/07/2021

Post#150 » Sun Jul 25, 2021 7:22 pm

Sweet, looks like BW is about to get a buff. It is a win / win for BW.

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