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Patch Notes 26/02/2021

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anarchypark
Posts: 2073

Re: Patch Notes 26/02/2021

Post#171 » Sun Feb 28, 2021 8:19 am

Sulorie wrote: Sat Feb 27, 2021 10:02 am People stacked armor, because toughness is underperforming and now we reduce armor values to make people look for other defensive options? Most healers picked armor because the other options are actually not worth it. This isn't going to change. People
will just die faster.

The less base armor you have, the bigger the effect of debuffs and penetration will be, as it is percentage based reduction.

isn't it contrary ?
50% armor debuff is, 1000 to 500, 5000 to 2500
that's 500 vs 2500.
so, less base armor have less effected.
flat armor debuff is just same flat effect.

lyncher12 wrote: Sat Feb 27, 2021 3:18 pm
roadkillrobin wrote: Sat Feb 27, 2021 1:05 pm Armor being to high isn't the issue, but rather the toughness lacks utillity in general. It only serves as good mitigation against long casting spells, non AoE spells. I would rather look into increasing the utillity of toughness as a general feat then messing with armor classes.

Physical damage is the most common damage type a healers are the target of. Outcomes on armor talismans is imo really risky change. The fact that people flock towards armor talismans over other stats is in my opinion a symptom of a general problem with light armor healers survivalbility, rather then armor being to good of a stat. Armor stacking was simply the best fix to broader core issue.
Its also hard/impossible to stack a meaningful amount of toughness on a healer other than Shaman. Even if you wanted to, not only would you gimp your stats by a lot, you probably wouldn't be able to get enough to notice it vs just slotting armor talismans. Only Invader has toughness on it and who wants to use 4 pieces of invader?

i agree that it's hard to stack a meaningful amount of toughness on a healer.
but it was same for armor on a cloth. maybe little better.
problem was WP/dok armor stack,
with hardy concession it's unkillable.

i think high armors are more effected. low armors are less.
SM8, SW8, AM8, WL7, KoBS5, BW5, WP8, WH7, IB7, Eng5, RP5, SL6
BG8, Sorc8, DoK8, WE7, Chs8, Mg8, Ze7, Mara8, BO6, SH7, Shm5, Chop4
SC summary - viewtopic.php?f=8&t=20415
( last update : 2020.06.09)

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Rumpel
Posts: 359

Re: Patch Notes 26/02/2021

Post#172 » Sun Feb 28, 2021 8:33 am

If all now stack toughness before armor, life gets harder for all dds. Armor you can strike through on some ways but toughnes....playing with 800 toughnes on my WE was nearly unkillable (even before toughnes buff!!!), except dmg was not that good but as healer its not that problem I think. But I don't know if its possible stacking so much toughnes on healers but at the end when everybody knows how to stack it they will become unkillable. I think they're are already some healers with hight toughnes cause some, not many, are hard to kill even without detaunt. They now will feel the real pain having much more to pay now for toughnes talis.
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Sulorie
Posts: 7219

Re: Patch Notes 26/02/2021

Post#173 » Sun Feb 28, 2021 9:18 am

anarchypark wrote: Sun Feb 28, 2021 8:19 am
Sulorie wrote: Sat Feb 27, 2021 10:02 am

The less base armor you have, the bigger the effect of debuffs and penetration will be, as it is percentage based reduction.

isn't it contrary ?
50% armor debuff is, 1000 to 500, 5000 to 2500
that's 500 vs 2500.
so, less base armor have less effected.
flat armor debuff is just same flat effect.
I added both together which I shouldn't have done. Armor penetration, which most likely is your 50% "debuffs" are more valuable at high armor, as the absolute reduction scales with armor values.

On low armor classes, flat debuffs are more efficient, as they are applied first and already drop armor values down to nothing, unless you are a RP with armor tactic. People not stacking armor are at like 10-15% mitigation by armor after flat debuff, without adding penetration.
Dying is no option.

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Jeliel80
Posts: 121

Re: Patch Notes 26/02/2021

Post#174 » Sun Feb 28, 2021 10:01 am

You think this is bad?
Yeah, but wait a moment, Futile Strikes nerf is coming next...
http://www.seventhlegion.net/
Jeliel - RP 87
Jel - WP 84
Jelyel - DoK 85
Jelielino - Shaman 85
Jelie - Zealot 81
Jelielina - AM 80

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anarchypark
Posts: 2073

Re: Patch Notes 26/02/2021

Post#175 » Sun Feb 28, 2021 10:41 am

Sulorie wrote: Sun Feb 28, 2021 9:18 am
anarchypark wrote: Sun Feb 28, 2021 8:19 am
Sulorie wrote: Sat Feb 27, 2021 10:02 am

The less base armor you have, the bigger the effect of debuffs and penetration will be, as it is percentage based reduction.

isn't it contrary ?
50% armor debuff is, 1000 to 500, 5000 to 2500
that's 500 vs 2500.
so, less base armor have less effected.
flat armor debuff is just same flat effect.
I added both together which I shouldn't have done. Armor penetration, which most likely is your 50% "debuffs" are more valuable at high armor, as the absolute reduction scales with armor values.

On low armor classes, flat debuffs are more efficient, as they are applied first and already drop armor values down to nothing, unless you are a RP with armor tactic. People not stacking armor are at like 10-15% mitigation by armor after flat debuff, without adding penetration.

still, flat is flat.
-1200 armor from WL/Mara are same - to both robe and tank.
how many armor remains after debuff is irrelevant.
SM8, SW8, AM8, WL7, KoBS5, BW5, WP8, WH7, IB7, Eng5, RP5, SL6
BG8, Sorc8, DoK8, WE7, Chs8, Mg8, Ze7, Mara8, BO6, SH7, Shm5, Chop4
SC summary - viewtopic.php?f=8&t=20415
( last update : 2020.06.09)

Kloaner
Posts: 121

Re: Patch Notes 26/02/2021

Post#176 » Sun Feb 28, 2021 10:54 am

okay we understood that healers with robe are too strong and they need to be toned down. Granted.

But why do you put armor values on the robe at all? My Archmage with full invader set has 1248 armor (28.4%), so actually a joke and a wasted value at this point where there would surely be other possibilities. Why not use toughness instead of armor on Robes (as an example)?
AM / RP / Shaman / Zealot / WP / DoK

Sulorie
Posts: 7219

Re: Patch Notes 26/02/2021

Post#177 » Sun Feb 28, 2021 11:09 am

anarchypark wrote: Sun Feb 28, 2021 10:41 am

still, flat is flat.
-1200 armor from WL/Mara are same - to both robe and tank.
how many armor remains after debuff is irrelevant.
When you are at 20-30% armor after debuff instead of 10%, you mitigate 2-3 times as much damage. On higher armor values this is not the case, as you lose the same flat value but it is not as efficient. So even just 350 armor more can make a difference on the low end.
Without armor pot, some want to remove even those, most robe/light armor classes are at 0 armor after flat debuff. If there is only armor penetration, you would have had some armor left.
Dying is no option.

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Dondabon
Posts: 27

Re: Patch Notes 26/02/2021

Post#178 » Sun Feb 28, 2021 11:33 am

Kloaner wrote: Sun Feb 28, 2021 10:54 am okay we understood that healers with robe are too strong and they need to be toned down. Granted.

But why do you put armor values on the robe at all? My Archmage with full invader set has 1248 armor (28.4%), so actually a joke and a wasted value at this point where there would surely be other possibilities. Why not use toughness instead of armor on Robes (as an example)?
This is a good point, I love it! At this point armor values on gear exists only so when WL/IB/WH/Mara/BG... drops his armor debuff its not wasted spell, but drops healers to 0-500 armor.
Remove armor totally and give us something useful instead, like toughness, wounds, reduced chance to be crit, heal crit etc.

Like this my 3 warlord 5 sov zealot has 200 toughness - do you think it is rly viable to go toughness talis with that?

Or, if you felt that WPs/DOKs were too hard to kill leave reduced armor tali values, but increase base values on cloth armor...

I am very sad with this change, I have a feeling solo play was considered when this was made and not 24v24 premade groups where cloth healers are already first target and already melted within few seconds if no guard swaps before dmg starts and cross healing from half of the WB+.
You already had common double digit number of deaths for cloth healers, now it will get even worse.

And, as someone already mentioned I am not sure did devs realize that this is indirect increase in damage for all melee classes? Having in mind meta is 7 melee + 1 ranged (and that is only for champ, otherwise it would also be removed) was this really necessary?
Zealot 84, Sorc 83, BG 83, WP 50+

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Evilest
Posts: 168

Re: Patch Notes 26/02/2021

Post#179 » Sun Feb 28, 2021 11:59 am

Dondabon wrote: Sun Feb 28, 2021 11:33 am And, as someone already mentioned I am not sure did devs realize that this is indirect increase in damage for all melee classes? Having in mind meta is 7 melee + 1 ranged (and that is only for champ, otherwise it would also be removed) was this really necessary?
Then its a balance issue that should not be papered over by _needing_ to have armor talis to have damage be balanced.

Because the same thing applies to dps classes with medium armor using them or, worse, using them and then doubling their armor. That's utterly broken IMO.

emiliorv
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Posts: 1295

Re: Patch Notes 26/02/2021

Post#180 » Sun Feb 28, 2021 1:44 pm

Jeliel80 wrote: Sun Feb 28, 2021 10:01 am You think this is bad?
Yeah, but wait a moment, Futile Strikes nerf is coming next...
Well i Will simply stop playing support classes and enjoy the dps buffs...when everyone stop playing healers (outside guild premades) lets see how Game is going...

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