Patch Notes 27/11/2020

[Snigz]

So ranged sh has NO aoe at all now if I understand it correctly?? Thought part of the changes was making ranged SH somewhat useful in other parts of the game besides small scale roaming.

The balance goal is not to make all specs viable on all encounters but to give classes a usable spec for a certain encounter. You don't need range aoe, when you have melee aoe. SW has no melee aoe for example but range aoe instead.

Places where warbands tend to get stuck in a narrow gap, like, let's say the keep door funnel in keeps and forts, it's arguably more useful to have ranged AOE than melee AOE. Especially since the ranged AOE can stand on top 3rd floor in siege defences and just rain down aoe on the melee AOE'ers. So if you look at balance from that perspective I think it's a strange decision to force one side into melee AOE and the other into ranged AOE. But I guess it is what it is, we have no say in this.

My primary concern is with the ranged limit to 65ft.

A good summary. Seems the dev team dont really care about the huge RDPS aoe imbalance on order side. That combined with the current fort and keep def meta it is a pain, and making the game way less fun (oh sorry it is fun for engies sws and bws to melt ppl from a corner while cultivating). I would be happy to have less rdps aoe on destro side, but until that is the way to win those objectives this remains kinda a mocking from dev side.

[Oglaf]

That’s not something we would reconsider anytime soon . Their aoe spec is melee tree

Why? If I may be frank, why? Giving SH (and Destro in general) more AoE RDPS "omphf" has been one of the most sought-after changes and what most players wanted out of the rSH rework/buff.

That's why the removal of AoE rubbed everyone the wrong way and, frankly, pissed a lot of players off with these changes and further cemented the notion that the dev team doesn't really know/care about Destruction's needs.

Not all players want a aoe ranged spec . See jurki or teefz proposals for exemple . Again , aoe spec is and will stay Bouncin

...and Destruction will stay with 4 MDPS careers and 2 RDPS careers viable in siege warfare and keep being at an disadvantage.

The balance goal is not to make all specs viable on all encounters but to give classes a usable spec for a certain encounter. You don't need range aoe, when you have melee aoe. SW has no melee aoe for example but range aoe instead.

Places where warbands tend to get stuck in a narrow gap, like, let's say the keep door funnel in keeps and forts, it's arguably more useful to have ranged AOE than melee AOE. Especially since the ranged AOE can stand on top 3rd floor in siege defences and just rain down aoe on the melee AOE'ers. So if you look at balance from that perspective I think it's a strange decision to force one side into melee AOE and the other into ranged AOE. But I guess it is what it is, we have no say in this.

My primary concern is with the ranged limit to 65ft.

A good summary. Seems the dev team dont really care about the huge RDPS aoe imbalance on order side. That combined with the current fort and keep def meta it is a pain, and making the game way less fun (oh sorry it is fun for engies sws and bws to melt ppl from a corner while cultivating). I would be happy to have less rdps aoe on destro side, but until that is the way to win those objectives this remains kinda a mocking from dev side.

^See this for example. I am not alone in this sentiment Grunbag. If any dev would just log into Destro once in a while and ask these things...

[Grunbag]

Which probably wouldn't work because you spec into either melee or range, no?

With stat exchange in squig armor it’s possible to have an hybrid spec

Sorry but seems you were not really playing the mSH class. It is an interesting thought to constantly switch and enhance the gameplay, I like that. But this patch is far from enabling that.
I have to give a gcd to come out apply the interrupt. Most cases you will already miss the interrupt, then the 5cd on squig armor is not finished so I have to wait plus an other gcd to get back.
For what? what skill I get that is useful and worth to come out while specced to the melee tree with tactics?
Can not spec rotten even after 70+ if I would like to have my melee spells lol.
I could do choking or shrapnel and some st shooting while being way more vulnerable. And I dont have a squig because I need ABM to be viable. Get rid of that and you gut the squig aoe dmg. So again, really no sense to come out and switch in cities or other open rvr wb fights for mSH. I can see some roaming small scale hybrid build where you can utilise this switching more. But not in main aoe melee spec.
Thats why I feel this patch is not really thought through.

Squig armor ignore global cooldown like all stance so you don’t need to waste any GCD. You have tool to get instant back jump if you’re not safe .
The goal is not to make hybrid spec viable in all aspect of the game , just make it possible as it wasn’t before .
We will continue to focus on making pet viable and fix the survivabilty issues , and probably get rid of ABM / loner after that. Pet career having to remove its pet to be viable makes no sense. But we can’t fix all pet design issue in one try.

[Omegus]

Not all players want a aoe ranged spec . See jurki or teefz proposals for exemple . Again , aoe spec is and will stay Bouncin

One thing to keep in mind is that people didn't make forum proposals asking for a ranged AOE spec because they already had one (and it was really fun).

With stat exchange in squig armor it’s possible to have an hybrid spec

Does stat exchange now also cover renown and potions? Because those are the two big areas that hinder hybrid specs especially when it comes to crit stats.

"Back in the day" (i.e. live) Mythic attempted to have hybrid builds require multiple types of damage stats - the Witch Hunter was a prime example of this with the sword being based off melee stats and the gun being based on ranged stats. This was a terrible idea and over time both Mythic and the ROR team have moved away from this and let hybrid classes just need a single stat either by changing the abilities of a class to use the same damage stat (WH) or through stat conversion. The first option allows you to make better use of potions and renown specs while stat conversion always feels like you're missing out.

Not now (as it's a lot of work) but for a future update would you consider changes to damage-boosting potions and renown specs (strength, intel, BS, * power, crits, etc) to be universal for all damage types? Or better yet, finally put the nail in the coffin of mixed damage stats by eliminating "Ballistic Skill", "Intelligence", etc completely and having "Strength" and "Attack Crit Chance" be the universal damage stats thus negating the need for all these conversions and superfluous stats? Attacks would still be classified as melee/range/magic for the purposes of avoidance and the like.

The final "stat" conversion classes would then be just Zealot/RP (their stat conversion is a whole other mess...) which makes a bit more sense as they're switching from healing to damage as opposed to one weapon to another.

[maxonian]

Small disclaimer: I main rSH on RoR and have mained rSH for years on live

As some SH players have stated in this topic, I too would rather have the old pre-rework SH than what we currently got. Reason for this being that rSH always felt (and demanded!) to be very fluid and dynamic on the battlefield, always on the go, - that was the essence of this class, but now this is pretty much gone.

Also I will do myself and invite every player that is going to share their thoughts and feedback regarding rSH to preface their message or paragraphs with what game context they are referring to, as large scale RVR lake wb vs wb fights plays are different to solo roam, which are different to 6v6, which are different to keep/fort siege stages. I think this is crucial. I believe even in this thread I've witnessed person A mention something regarding rSH's performance in one context and got counter-arguments from person B implying a completely different game context, which makes it near impossible to find common ground and have a constructive dialog.

I would like to share my experiences and thoughts regarding rSH in
[keep/fort sieges]:

65ft feels awful during keep/fort standoff because:

* Hitting Oil is much more dangerous now, since 2 of rSH's dots (Yer Bleeding and Rotten Arrer) now have 65ft base range, which means that you have to come closer than any other destro rDPS (sorcs, shammies and even maguses all get the luxury of standing at a greater range), separating yourself from your wb, thus making you that much more visible to enemy defenders on the walls and when they start focusing you, you have that much more distance to cover on foot to break fire now.

* Applying your dots/debuffs to enemy backline when door is down and during funnel phase requires you to almost be on your tanks' backs, absolutely eating up all the AOE damage order is dishing out, which a) very quickly kills your squig, and that in turn makes slotting newly introduced pet-dependent tactics (Sharpened Arrers=25% armor pen and Shooting Quicka=50% AA haste) very questionable, b) puts excessive pressure on your healers to keep your fragile green bum alive or c) makes you need to back out from this position fast, thus removing your DPS/pressure from enemies and making you a less valuable member of the warband overall, compared to other destro rDPS

If I had to pick one most valuable ability of rSH -- guys, I know rSH has a whole bag of tricks and utility skills for different situations – but if I had to single out one skill that makes the biggest contribution in wb context – barrel to the head, pick one type of situation – it would be Rotten Arrer, spammable 98ft heal debuff (as it was just a few days ago). With that taken away, specifically range not really being feasible in keep/fort situations, what rSHs are left with?

In other words, there is of course always an option not to use QS abilities during standoff, and only use 100ft abilities but let's take a closer look at them?

- Plink, Lots o'Arrers and What blocks – 2 direct damage and one supplemental to them ability which makes rSHs invade and compete in raw sustained DPS domain of sorcs and maguses, a competition rSH will never (and should never) be able to come ahead in due to nature of the classes. Better than nothing but why bring a rSH to Fort defense or attack when you could bring a magus or sorc?

- Shrapnel Arrer – range reducing debuff. SWs are kinda your only target during standoff, since healers are far back/behind the columns etc and BWs and engies dont need to have direct LOS for destro backline to hit it with their AOE abilities. Dont get me wrong Shrapnel Arrer is nice and totally useable but still's it's a 5sec cd utility skill, recipients of which are mostly SWs. How much is one debuffed Sw going to help your warband push in or def enemy push? A little bit. What boggles my mind is that debuffed SW would still have 75ft range on their Broadhead Arrow (if they are not using AOE tactic), – BA being THE gem of an ability of Skirmisher tree, 100ft, 3x stackable – while not debuffed rSH now sits at 65ft for their heal debuff (THE gem ability of QS tree for rSH).

Let's reverse this situation, just to magnify and underline the discrepancy: not debuffed SW 100ft, debuffed rSH 49ft with their prime “medium range” tree abilities. Wow.
I'm not proposing to make Yer Bleedin 100ft and 3x stackable to mirror SW, I'm totally fine with the old status quo of BA having 100ft range ST/65ft AOE, 3x stackable and Yer Bleedin/Rotten Arrer having 98ft not stackable but spammable. Kind of the same range, different skills, different uses and different flavor to the classes but seems balanced to me.

- Choking Arrer – 30sec cd silence. Situational during standoff. But you are rarely going to get healer or BW in your crosshair during funnel phase, because of reasons stated above. Useless against Sws.

- Not So Fast – 20sec cd range kd. Very strong addition to rSH in recent rework. But unfortunately in keep/fort siege context, whether your target is knocked down or not, you are likely not going to kill your enemy without them having incoming heal debuff on.

- Exploding Arrer – 13 mastery pts (sic!) PBAOE punt on 20sec cd. Definitely has it's uses if destro tanks/melee push through the funnel was successful but there are still tons of alive order rDPS and healers on the sides/stairs. Very strong addition to rSH. But not worth 13 mastery points slot skill IMO.

So with QS tree abilities largely invalidated during fort/keep sieges (due to short range), rSH has to rely on BS. But then this dreadful question looms over – Why bring rSH into wb at all? Get magus, get sorc. This feels bad.


PROPOSALS:

1) Shoot Thru Ya
Back to core ability. @Wargrimnir said in this thread that the only other option for Shoot Thru Ya was for it to be gone. But why? Why not leave it as it was? What is the reasoning behind this change? Was it because 'the AOE spec' of SH is mSH and thus no other AOE skills should be accessed outside of this spec? I think even order players never stated that Shoot Thru Ya is OP and should be toned down because rSH are totally thwarting their fort/keep funnel pushes. And that says something, considering how each faction is at the throat of their opposing one. IMO Shoot Thru Ya was in a perfect spot: 1) The only real AOE skill of rSH 2) Okay damage. Doesnt need to be tuned up or down 3) Drawback of exposing yourself at 65ft range (i.e. Lag for 2 sec during a Fort def when order pushes through the destro funnel and you suddenly find yourself in a sea of slayers, WLs and order tanks, rooted or knocked down and then shortly after with a cute gray panel with a timer and word 'Respawn' on it) 4) Great for PVE trash clearing with Expert Skirmisher. Solid skill with hefty advantages (real AOE, okay dmg, cast on move) and just as serious drawbacks (2 sec cast, 65ft range).

2) Finish Em Off
Back to 13 pt BS mastery skill. Having finisher have 65ft range is very awkward. A lot of burst potential gone with the range changed to 65ft. Lack of Finish Em off reduces BS path to being mere plinkin-machine.

3) Not So Fast
Moved to QS with ranged reduced to 65ft.

4) Run-n-Shoot, Rotten Arrer, Yer bleeding
Range increased to 98/100ft innate. Notice I'm not suggesting to revert Shootin Wif Da Wind tactic to it's previous state. So this still leaves other QS abilities – Stop Running, Behind Ya, Red Tipped Arrer and Not So fast (as per (3)) at 65ft range.

IMO, these proposed changes are not as radical as some that players stated in this thread i.e. revert SWDW to it's original state or even make SWDW in it's previous state core. But that being said, I agree that 65ft is NO range for rSH to be at from their enemies. Too squishy on the defence. Or too useless on the offence if you stay farther than 65ft and rely on current-state BS skills and disregard your other (dare I say class defining) abilities.

If devteam is absolutely hell-bent on having QS tree limited to 65ft, that would really be strange for SWs BA and SFA to keep 100ft range (not to mention having stackable BA). Doesnt seem fair.

Mobility and fluidity is the heart of this class. At 65ft rSH is much more likely to be dead than be alive and mobile. So rSHs stay back and plink. With mobility gone, spirit of rSH is gone.



With all that being said, I want to thank devs for their continued support and development of the game. You guys have made an incredibly fun and wholesome game. Hat's off to you!


P.S. First post btw

Edits: Formatting

[Snigz]

With stat exchange in squig armor it’s possible to have an hybrid spec

Sorry but seems you were not really playing the mSH class. It is an interesting thought to constantly switch and enhance the gameplay, I like that. But this patch is far from enabling that.
I have to give a gcd to come out apply the interrupt. Most cases you will already miss the interrupt, then the 5cd on squig armor is not finished so I have to wait plus an other gcd to get back.
For what? what skill I get that is useful and worth to come out while specced to the melee tree with tactics?
Can not spec rotten even after 70+ if I would like to have my melee spells lol.
I could do choking or shrapnel and some st shooting while being way more vulnerable. And I dont have a squig because I need ABM to be viable. Get rid of that and you gut the squig aoe dmg. So again, really no sense to come out and switch in cities or other open rvr wb fights for mSH. I can see some roaming small scale hybrid build where you can utilise this switching more. But not in main aoe melee spec.
Thats why I feel this patch is not really thought through.

Squig armor ignore global cooldown like all stance so you don’t need to waste any GCD. You have tool to get instant back jump if you’re not safe .
The goal is not to make hybrid spec viable in all aspect of the game , just make it possible as it wasn’t before .
We will continue to focus on making pet viable and fix the survivabilty issues , and probably get rid of ABM / loner after that. Pet career having to remove its pet to be viable makes no sense. But we can’t fix all pet design issue in one try.

I hope that will come with aoe abilty dmg increase because we can throw mSH out if not.
And yes I agree, it makes no sense to urge a pet career to play without its pet.

[Fenris78]

Stats are one thing, but without investment in the melee tree you won't have skills.

Yes, because 9 core skills for mSH are not enough... sure. With core AoE KB and ST KD.

This spec doesnt even need mastery point (outside of squig leap maybe) to be viable, don't make me laugh.

While the aSW have to spend 14 points to get the ST KD, and still wont have half the tools you have (especially when it comes to survivability and kiting).
Hopefully Skirmish got 65 ft AoE, yay !

[Everdin]

It is unbelievable how many people play this "unplayable" class atm every third player i hit is a squig

[farng84]

@Devs

Can you explain the theory behind nerfing rSH range ?

Click here to watch on YouTube

Thanks for sharing the video Wargrimnir (it was actually interesting, not being sarcastic).
I have some issue with Devs interpretation of it since you went for a realistic explanation.

1)Since the arrow travel a shorter distance it packs a stronger punch (the force did not dissipate due to the longer range) - i.e. each arrow does more dmg due to higher force. Let's say that a smaller bow is used (like the goblin one), we could assume that more or less each arrow have at least the same force?
2)It should shoot much quicker, like we saw in the video, compared to the elven archer (we are talking of at least twice the speed), which has to shoot at distance
3)Since it shoot many more arrow there should be a very significant dmg gap between the two
4)We go for realistic explanation while we have AOE arrows (and magic and magical creatures)

[Jabba]

It is unbelievable how many people play this "unplayable" class atm every third player i hit is a squig

Only natural after a huge change.

How many of them drop like sacks of **** without achieving anything in the new quick shootin spec?