Patch Notes 27/11/2020

[Kragg]

Spoiler:

By that logic Throwing arm and Daemonic reach should also be removed from the game since they buff the range of mid-range tree.
Not to mention that short range for Squig Herder is bouncing tree, not quick shooting.

Maybe Loner and ABM shouldn't exist at all. I could see an argument against both of them for sure. I've made arguments against giving Engi/Magus a loner spec already.
Maybe Throwing Arm and Daemonic Reach shouldn't exist either. I could see an argument against both of them as well. Both paths reference short range attacks, and they're clearly not that short. They're also AOE specs, which have bonus range due to radius as well, which means a 98' grenade that explodes in a 20' radius is getting closer to 120' which ranged classes without a bonus range tactic wouldn't be able to hit at all.
Maybe we will end up taking a pass at Magus/Engi in the future, and the same discussions we've had with SH/SW will end up in the same results. Can't really expect us to do everything all at once, particularly when a single class takes quite a bit of time to setup properly.

Of course, there are options to increase your range as both rSH and rSW, whether that's through gear options for +10 range bonuses, or your stance/pet that provides a 10% range bonus. Combined you should be around 80' of range, if that's the playstyle you really need to feel safe. But perhaps, you shouldn't feel safe at all.

Thanks for replying, appreciate it

Both armour range buff and squig buff combined give 91ft range, not enough to deal with range casters (BWs, AMs, Engies) but enough to kite lions and SWs. Utility gameplay got seriously reduced but dmg output feels on par with "old" m2 burst. I just hope that inevitable salt rivers from order will not cause "tuning down" of the only thing that makes this nerf worth while.

You seem to forget how mobile SH are, expecially in comparison to a rifleman engineer who has to drop a turret in 2 seconds, get stacks to reach full damage potential and so on. We have to stand still to shoot you. You can have my range, if i get to shoot my gunblast on the move, without having to carry the turret around

[Andack]

The lost of the AP tactic and the price of Ard Nogging (35PA) is realy a pain, we cant do more than 2 skill and we lost all of our AP...

[wargrimnir]

The lost of the AP tactic and the price of Ard Nogging (35PA) is realy a pain, we cant do more than 2 skill and we lost all of our AP...

Oh, did you mean you can only use your full melee rotation twice before getting low on AP? Because that's what actually happens. I know it might be a little confusing. You actually have 250AP not whatever you think a 35AP Ard Noggin+ other skill cost.

[Andack]

With the cost of ard nogging, the drain PA from Kotbs, Archmage, it's just impossible to do damage, you are out of AP in the first cycle.

[Omegus]

Yes if you were expecting a long range aoe mobile spec that’s not what we wanted .

Which is a shame as that's exactly what the players wanted and have had since live. Was it overpowered? Not as far as I know. Was it fun? God yes. 100ft AOE arrows backed up with an AOE DOT and Shoot Through Ya for a different form of AOE. It's not even like it's been altered and players need to try the new version; instead the entire style of play has been removed with no alternative/replacement provided. The entire reason I rolled my shitty squig was because Quick Shootin's range/aoe spec was really fun to play. When I saw what had happened to the SW I was worried but this went far beyond what I expected.

Instead we now have another attempt at a "mid-range" ranged spec which historically don't work because 65ft range is an awkward range: too short to participate in sieges (attacking or defending), too short to kite anything with a speed buff in its pocket, puts you in Pounce/Squig Leap range which is pretty much instant death, etc. A kite spec that doesn't have the range to kite. There's a reason why the "65ft" specs come with range buffs... the Engineer/Magus also has similar short-range flavour text on their 65ft tree and what's the range of those abilities when specced, geared and buffed again?

Positive feedback: the QOL changes to melee squig look nice.

And now to log in and see those old intros for the first time in many many years

[ztil]

So it was ok to take away the range increase tactic from the SW but taking it away from SH is a big thing?
SH with 100ft range on nearly every skill are mostly not even hard to catch but nearly impossible to catch if played well like Jurki and Teefz prove every day. Ofc if I was a rSH I wouldn't like the change either but it is just fair.
You still have good skills on 65ft range and now you have range-kd I think that's quiet fair and why shouldn't you take a little risk whilst still having you utility?

No, I had the same concerns about range when the SW rework was being done so I don't know why you would assume I think that was ok. But one big difference is what SW got to compensate for it. It got Spiral-Fletched Arrow, and Broadhead Arrow's base range increased from 65ft to 100ft and only reduced to 65ft when using the Split Arrows tactic (which btw makes the SW aoe pretty good now). I think that is a more fair tradeoff when loosing range since what SW got was some aoe capability and warband utility (with morale drain barrage). Meaning that when they are full 65ft spec they are probably specced that way because they are in a warband doing aoe and their range is matching that of sorc's, engis and bw's in aoe spec.

While when a squig herder is quick shooting 65ft-spec I doubt anyone will want it in a warband, not before and definately not now since what little aoe capability it had has been removed. So basically it has the same "role" as before, a ST skirmisher with reduced range and increased dmg.

[wargrimnir]

Yes if you were expecting a long range aoe mobile spec that’s not what we wanted .

Which is a shame as that's exactly what the players wanted and have had since live. Was it overpowered? Not as far as I know. Was it fun? God yes. 100ft AOE arrows backed up with an AOE DOT and Shoot Through Ya for a different form of AOE. It's not even like it's been altered and players need to try the new version; instead the entire style of play has been removed with no alternative/replacement provided. The entire reason I rolled my shitty squig was because Quick Shootin's range/aoe spec was really fun to play. When I saw what had happened to the SW I was worried but this went far beyond what I expected.

Instead we now have another attempt at a "mid-range" ranged spec which historically don't work because 65ft range is an awkward range: too short to participate in sieges (attacking or defending), too short to kite anything with a speed buff in its pocket, puts you in Pounce/Squig Leap range which is pretty much instant death, etc. A kite spec that doesn't have the range to kite. There's a reason why the "65ft" specs come with range buffs... the Engineer/Magus also has similar short-range flavour text on their 65ft tree and what's the range of those abilities when specced, geared and buffed again?

Positive feedback: the QOL changes to melee squig look nice.

And now to log in and see those old intros for the first time in many many years

I love the foreshadowing going on

Maybe Pounce at 65' is way too much mobility.

[nat3s]

You ever looked at the description of Quick Shootin?
It says something about short range. Since when is nearly 100ft short range?

There appears to be a few disparities which I cannot square. If someone with more experience can clarify that would be good.

rSW has 2 significant Skirm dmg abilities with 100f range (Broadhead Arrow and Spiral-Fletched Arrow) - we all know how potent that Broadhead DoT is when stacked.
rSH has 0 100ft ranged dmg abilities in QS spec.

rSW Skirm also got massive aoe damage as compensation for 65ft range in addition to Broadhead being pretty sick.
rSH QS has not received much by way of damage compensation.

I'm fine with Skirm being AoE and QS being ST, that feels like the right thing to do, but you're going to need to give QS real ST for it to be worth the range sacrifice.

You did such a good job giving Skirm genuine aoe dps, I'm not sure where you went wrong trying to give QS genuine ST dps. It's also worth noting Scout > BS for ST damage too!

I don't think these changes hit the mark, there needs to be a Squig class lead on the team to provide a bit of insight imho.

EDIT: Would just add, the MSH changes look good, I'm not seeing all the doom and gloom, nice to see armour buff is more reliable, that'll help. Need to test whether it still doubles base armour i.e. armour debuffs apply prior to the multiplier.

[Grunbag]

Yes if you were expecting a long range aoe mobile spec that’s not what we wanted .

Instead we now have another attempt at a "mid-range" ranged spec which historically don't work because 65ft range is an awkward range: too short to participate in sieges (attacking or defending), too short to kite anything with a speed buff in its pocket, puts you in Pounce/Squig Leap range which is pretty much instant death, etc. A kite spec that doesn't have the range to kite. There's a reason why the "65ft" specs come with range buffs...

We can definitely think about reducing squig leap and pounce range if it’s the main issue you encounter

[Onigokko0101]

Why do WL pets get 75% and magus pink horrors get 0% aoe reduction (and I'm assuming engineer equivalent as well)? Seems the static 'pets' should get at least 25% redux.

Rest is shiny. Now that the rSH have their fix (+/- a week or two to work out kinks I'm sure), how about them 2H choppa? Lil' love for them? Eh? EH?!! <3

Pink Horror is magus range spec, so the idea is that it shouldnt be that close to the ball of death.

Flamer is the 'medium range' spec, it will prob get hit by stuff but les

and Blue Horror is basically melee spec Magus, which is why it gets that much. It makes sense.