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Patch Notes 08/02/2020 - City Sieges

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Sulorie
Posts: 7219

Re: Patch Notes 08/02/2020 - City Sieges

Post#61 » Sun Feb 09, 2020 8:01 pm

Fey wrote: Sun Feb 09, 2020 7:31 pm I don't have much experience with WoL, but you could always be knocked back correct? If so you could always use cleansing flare or point blank to counter. As a healing AM I would watch for WoL like a hawk in fort defense. I don't play much order though. 100 foot KB on three classes seems like a perfectly plausible counter.
Cleaning flare as heal spec AM on another healer isn't reliable due to disrupt.
Dying is no option.

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Zxul
Posts: 1359

Re: Patch Notes 08/02/2020 - City Sieges

Post#62 » Sun Feb 09, 2020 8:05 pm

wonshot wrote: Sun Feb 09, 2020 6:07 pm
While this is dangerous territory I guess I'll try to adress this, as I assume it was directed at me?
Yes we had a Dev in our warband, after he applied to join as a full on guildmember, and be treated as a guildmember(and not a Dev-player!). That involves getting spammed on discord and waking up to 150+ new messages in our theorycrafting section, doing internal guild-tests in offzones where we play chars on both realms to test out how different mechanics interact with eachother. This new member had an idea about how his class would interact with the Zealot winds of insanity mechanic, and the change to this ability is probably because he realized how there was no actual counterplay to an ability prenerf did the following:

- Drained the Zealot's AP point periodically (ap pots are a thing)
- punted back all enemyplayers(24aoe cap) for the 6sec duration, without granting them punt/pull/root immunity
- undefendable ticks of damage (no longer relevant as AOE healdebuffing on crit is gone)
- allowed for the zealot to cast all normal abilities + morales while the Self-toggle of Winds of insanity is ongoing (creating a safezone while grouphealing or ressing)
- Immune to all sorts of setback, cc, interrupts while the toggle was on

Winds of Insanity needed a window where there is counterplay against it, because in a keep or funnel situation not having line of sight to super punt a zealot preemptively this one ability could stop a full M4 push. And it could be chained by other zealots as followup, potentially. (an other change could had been to just give Wind of Insanity a 6player aoe cap like Rift)
Funny thing, here are two ways of countering it which I came up with within 10 seconds after reading your post, which you for some reason didn't seem to find with all that testing:

1. Have an engi place a mine from far away, just before the push.
2. Have the tanks rushing in including sms with Vaul's Tempering.

Funny isn't it.
"Can we play with him, master? He seems so unhappy. Let us help him smile. Please? Or at least let us carve one on his face when he stops screaming."

— Azeila, Alluress of Slaanesh

notre
Posts: 84

Re: Patch Notes 08/02/2020 - City Sieges

Post#63 » Sun Feb 09, 2020 9:05 pm

wonshot wrote: Sun Feb 09, 2020 6:07 pm Winds of Insanity needed a window where there is counterplay against it,
Sorry, but,
what about the pull + disable + root combo from the WL?
They do that in middle air and there is no counter to that. You end with two inmunities and dead.
Wich counter we have here? I tell you, none.
(And wait for the ppl get geared up....will be funny trying to heal those burst.)

Plus, and i din't see anyone mention, that the real range isn't 5ft for melees due to the game itself, you can hit from 13ft (more or less), so even with Winds you get hit by attacks soo often wich makes that defensive skill already useless.
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6x -> Shammy dps
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3x -> BG, Zealot dps
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CountTalabecland
Posts: 979

Re: Patch Notes 08/02/2020 - City Sieges

Post#64 » Sun Feb 09, 2020 9:30 pm

Good nerf for Winds, was very much needed.
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Collateral
Posts: 1494

Re: Patch Notes 08/02/2020 - City Sieges

Post#65 » Sun Feb 09, 2020 9:51 pm

Zxul wrote: Sun Feb 09, 2020 8:05 pm Funny thing, here are two ways of countering it which I came up with within 10 seconds after reading your post, which you for some reason didn't seem to find with all that testing:

1. Have an engi place a mine from far away, just before the push.
2. Have the tanks rushing in including sms with Vaul's Tempering.

Funny isn't it.
I'll play the devils advocate here. No sm worth its salt specs vauls tempering in proper wbs. And random mines just give free immunities to everyone before anything even happens.

Zxul
Posts: 1359

Re: Patch Notes 08/02/2020 - City Sieges

Post#66 » Sun Feb 09, 2020 10:16 pm

Collateral wrote: Sun Feb 09, 2020 9:51 pm
Zxul wrote: Sun Feb 09, 2020 8:05 pm Funny thing, here are two ways of countering it which I came up with within 10 seconds after reading your post, which you for some reason didn't seem to find with all that testing:

1. Have an engi place a mine from far away, just before the push.
2. Have the tanks rushing in including sms with Vaul's Tempering.

Funny isn't it.
I'll play the devils advocate here. No sm worth its salt specs vauls tempering in proper wbs. And random mines just give free immunities to everyone before anything even happens.
Sure. Spec specific premade wb only build, to counter a specific premade wb only build. As for mines (and it won't hurt a sm rush for that matter), have a wh sneak in, and call in voice when to place the mine to make sure zealot is hit.
"Can we play with him, master? He seems so unhappy. Let us help him smile. Please? Or at least let us carve one on his face when he stops screaming."

— Azeila, Alluress of Slaanesh

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wonshot
Posts: 1101

Re: Patch Notes 08/02/2020 - City Sieges

Post#67 » Sun Feb 09, 2020 10:33 pm

Zxul wrote: Sun Feb 09, 2020 8:05 pm Funny thing, here are two ways of countering it which I came up with within 10 seconds after reading your post, which you for some reason didn't seem to find with all that testing:

1. Have an engi place a mine from far away, just before the push.
2. Have the tanks rushing in including sms with Vaul's Tempering.

Funny isn't it.
Funny thing, but do you even warband bra? jk :D

Vaul's Tempering is something we thourght about, but due to the 2GCD requirement on the ability, 30foot range on partymembers and this CC immunity only lasting half of the duration of a Winds channel you cant use this ability as a reactionary tool, and with 3sec duration its too "expensive" in terms of what you give up as a prediction-tool.
I dove abit into its usefulness a week ago over here: viewtopic.php?f=8&t=35124&p=389305#p389305 so its not like its not been thourght about. Believe me :P

I do like the suggestions and how some players like to think outside of the box and actually use different classes knowledge to work around strong tools, I am all for that part of the game. But Winds of Insanity simply just didnt have any counterplay. Now it just needs to fixed so zealot can cast spells without selfinterrupting, while being able to eat interrupts from enemies and its fine id think.
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zgolec
Posts: 753

Re: Patch Notes 08/02/2020 - City Sieges

Post#68 » Sun Feb 09, 2020 10:46 pm

retekelek wrote: Sun Feb 09, 2020 7:13 pm And what about Solar Flare on Kotbs for fort and keep plays? i was in a fort attack whit my tank, every time before we got m4 to ready to push 3-4 kotbs come out, droped thier morale drain on both sides frontline and we wasnt able to use m4 on pushing attempts. it was a massacre for order.
....and guess what? it was nerfed. Your turn Felicia.
SM 82 / IB 82 / KOTBS 82 / WL 82 / WP 72 / SW 75
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zgolec
Posts: 753

Re: Patch Notes 08/02/2020 - City Sieges

Post#69 » Sun Feb 09, 2020 10:49 pm

Zxul wrote: Sun Feb 09, 2020 8:05 pm
2. Have the tanks rushing in including sms with Vaul's Tempering.

Funny isn't it.
Yea funny. We tested it many times. With VT 3 sec vs 6sec WoI duration u cant do ****. No matter how you play it.
SM 82 / IB 82 / KOTBS 82 / WL 82 / WP 72 / SW 75
CH 77 / BG 6X / BO 6X / WE 6X / MAG 6X ...and others.

Zxul
Posts: 1359

Re: Patch Notes 08/02/2020 - City Sieges

Post#70 » Sun Feb 09, 2020 11:26 pm

wonshot wrote: Sun Feb 09, 2020 10:33 pm Vaul's Tempering is something we thourght about, but due to the 2GCD requirement on the ability, 30foot range on partymembers and this CC immunity only lasting half of the duration of a Winds channel you cant use this ability as a reactionary tool, and with 3sec duration its too "expensive" in terms of what you give up as a prediction-tool.
I dove abit into its usefulness a week ago over here: viewtopic.php?f=8&t=35124&p=389305#p389305 so its not like its not been thourght about. Believe me :P
Simple solution- 2 sm breach party, using VT one after another. 6 sec CC immunity, enough to cover Winds full duration, and no GCDs for one of sms for each duration.

Then there is a wh staggering the zealot for 6 sec from stealth, or sending in VT sm + kotb/m3 wp to aoe stagger everyone for 5/6 sec, ets.

Point is, there were plenty of ways to deal with Winding zealot as it was.
wonshot wrote: Sun Feb 09, 2020 10:33 pm But Winds of Insanity simply just didnt have any counterplay.
Shown not to be true above. Yet somehow non of the above solutions, which didn't took me long to came up with, came up during testing with the dev :P

Edit:
zgolec wrote: Sun Feb 09, 2020 10:49 pm Yea funny. We tested it many times. With VT 3 sec vs 6sec WoI duration u cant do ****. No matter how you play it.
And funny yet again how it didn't took me long to came up with a solutions how exactly you can play it.
Last edited by Zxul on Sun Feb 09, 2020 11:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"Can we play with him, master? He seems so unhappy. Let us help him smile. Please? Or at least let us carve one on his face when he stops screaming."

— Azeila, Alluress of Slaanesh

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