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Patch Notes 12/10/2019

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Gangan
Posts: 550

Re: Patch Notes 12/10/2019

Post#21 » Sun Oct 13, 2019 10:08 am

Pächter des Wahnsinns
Gangan - SH 50+ Blumnmoscha - BO 63
Scophis - Zealot 61 Drengur - WP 64
Iznogoud - Sham 40+ Bixo - Engie 50+
Apogemoth - Magus 40+
originating from Drakenwald

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Lithenir
Posts: 191

Re: Patch Notes 12/10/2019

Post#22 » Sun Oct 13, 2019 10:39 am

Natherul wrote:
Sun Oct 13, 2019 8:04 am
Please note that the changes to domination is a test and it may come back if no improvement has been reached.

Please bring back domination asap. Sc are just boring right now. It's just the good old spawn camping for a long time until the scenario is finally over. I don't care about the "lost" emblems...

What about another idea to fix scenario problem? Remove points and renown for kills away from the objective. Maybe this would stop the boring killing. Instead increase the rewards at the end of a sc. Give more renown to the people playing the objectives afterwards. Tbh I don't really have a solution or a good idea at least but it cannot stay this way. I've had it for years on live and that was more than enough.

anarchypark
Posts: 1646

Re: Patch Notes 12/10/2019

Post#23 » Sun Oct 13, 2019 10:50 am

ppl were about to realize what's objective play.
priority, distraction, mission first etc.
first day of patch, camping and delaying 15m for kill farm already started.
maximazing it gives 8~9k rp.

i hope this is a test for SC mechanic review.
to change kill farm SC into Forge rework.
SM8, SW8, AM8, WL5, KoBS5, BW4, WP8, WH5, IB5, EG4, RP4, SL5
BG7, Sorc6, DoK7, WE7, Cs7, Mg7, Ze6, Mara6, BO4, SH4, Shm5, Chop3
SC summary - viewtopic.php?f=8&t=20415
( last update : 2020.06.09)

Sulorie
Posts: 4927

Re: Patch Notes 12/10/2019

Post#24 » Sun Oct 13, 2019 11:05 am

Lithenir wrote:
Sun Oct 13, 2019 10:39 am
Please bring back domination asap. Sc are just boring right now. It's just the good old spawn camping for a long time until the scenario is finally over. I don't care about the "lost" emblems...

What about another idea to fix scenario problem? Remove points and renown for kills away from the objective. Maybe this would stop the boring killing. Instead increase the rewards at the end of a sc. Give more renown to the people playing the objectives afterwards. Tbh I don't really have a solution or a good idea at least but it cannot stay this way. I've had it for years on live and that was more than enough.
Yes, lets quit all fighting in sc and go for cap win. Because we play this game to carry flags. Dying 4 times as much as the enemy shouldn't matter, because planting bomb makes you the better team. Hell, don't even think about fixing groups when sc is about to start or make groups to play as a team.
Dying is no option.

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Yaliskah
King of Nothing
Posts: 1926

Re: Patch Notes 12/10/2019

Post#25 » Sun Oct 13, 2019 11:36 am

Domination.

What does exactly do Domination? It stops the scenario when a faction is dominated in kills.

Is it supposed to make spawn camping impossible ? No. In this precise case, it points a lack of scenario design and it would be intersting to know in which scenario something is really missing, to make appropriate change in specific case. If domination had the purpose to solve the spawn camping only, in its current form it "solve" probably the issue, opening tons of new one. Exemple : Can you spawn camp Logrin Forge/Khaine's Embrace? No you can't. So in this case domination is not an answer.

Is it supposed to provide leverage between faction ? No. Playing in a random group or in a premade is a player choice. No offense, but whatever choice you make, it does not deter anyone from knowing how to play their role in a group. I have already won a scenario without the slightest healer facing balanced groups. At some level, you -as (solo/grouped) player- are responsible of the group you have in scenario and the role you have to assume. Matchmaking is supposed to help, but it brings its problems (we are responsible of).

Is it supposed to "force" players to play sc objectives? It should. But what about when domination starts preciselly when the scenario is played? ( Khaines Embrace, Battle for Praag, any control objective scenario)? How many scenarios stopped because 18 players died around a Battle Objective to be able to take it? much more than WC camping case imo.

Is it supposed to make dominating faction miserable to rejoyce dominated one ? Certainly not. In the end everyone feels frustrated and afaik thats not the way a good system should work.

If players are spawn camped, reason are multiple : Scenario design is bad, camped players are less good, poorly organized, matchmaking is failing ... some point on which we can try things and some others or we can not do anything.

So domination is actually removed for some time waiting for another system -next week i hope-, and deeper changes in time (later) in term of scenario general mechanics and design (as started with Logrin's Forge proposal).

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Lithenir
Posts: 191

Re: Patch Notes 12/10/2019

Post#26 » Sun Oct 13, 2019 12:54 pm

Sulorie wrote:
Sun Oct 13, 2019 11:05 am
Lithenir wrote:
Sun Oct 13, 2019 10:39 am
Please bring back domination asap. Sc are just boring right now. It's just the good old spawn camping for a long time until the scenario is finally over. I don't care about the "lost" emblems...

What about another idea to fix scenario problem? Remove points and renown for kills away from the objective. Maybe this would stop the boring killing. Instead increase the rewards at the end of a sc. Give more renown to the people playing the objectives afterwards. Tbh I don't really have a solution or a good idea at least but it cannot stay this way. I've had it for years on live and that was more than enough.
Yes, lets quit all fighting in sc and go for cap win. Because we play this game to carry flags. Dying 4 times as much as the enemy shouldn't matter, because planting bomb makes you the better team. Hell, don't even think about fixing groups when sc is about to start or make groups to play as a team.
Well I don't know how you enjoy this game, but if you enjoy spawn camping for 10 minutes all the time, then have fun. I don't. And I didn't say that you should quit fighting I just said remove renown and points away from the objective. That could keep people away from spawn camping, bc they won't get renown for it. Take the fights where they belong, to the objectives. How many times have I been in bomb-scs without anyone ever think about taking the bomb and do what the sc is designed for... You can have damn good fights with the bomb, trying to not let them place it, but instead people are spawn camping. That's no fun. At least not for me. Doesn't matter if we camp or get camped. It's just boring.

Hienzwar
Posts: 96

Re: Patch Notes 12/10/2019

Post#27 » Sun Oct 13, 2019 1:45 pm

I like the ideas of the reworks, hopefully we see more for the other sc's.

I hope domination comes back, nothing worse then camping or being camped - for those that say its robs you of renown or a fight - really?

Sulorie
Posts: 4927

Re: Patch Notes 12/10/2019

Post#28 » Sun Oct 13, 2019 2:37 pm

Lithenir wrote:
Sun Oct 13, 2019 12:54 pm

How many times have I been in bomb-scs without anyone ever think about taking the bomb and do what the sc is designed for... You can have damn good fights with the bomb, trying to not let them place it, but instead people are spawn camping.
Spawn camps happen, when the matchmaker is putting uneven teams together, be it numbers or power. From this perspective, almost all SC are loop sided.
People sit on objective and don't move, because unless you rush through and wipe everyone fast, the enemy can cap right behind you. You can leave ppl for defense but how many? How many you can leave behind before the rest is too weak to push enemy flag? It becomes worse, when WE/WH are in the sc, who can easily ignore a single defender. The sc mechanic makes sc dull and boring.

In bomb run sc, it is too easy to defend, because snares and any fights on the way makes it near impossible to drop bomb in time. While you fight and bomb resets, some solos can pick up bomb and run to opposite side. Here you have the same problem with defense and how many you can leave at mid to defend.

To reduce spawncamps, set up a proper team with balanced classes and no random class setups, because the MM fails at it. Sadly, players ask the MM to make proper groups, instead of putting in effort to build groups. Better teams on both sides will result in less loopsided games.
Dying is no option.

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PDM
Banned
Posts: 19

Re: Patch Notes 12/10/2019

Post#29 » Sun Oct 13, 2019 3:11 pm

Yaliskah wrote:
Sun Oct 13, 2019 11:36 am
Is it supposed to make spawn camping impossible ? No. In this precise case, it points a lack of scenario design and it would be intersting to know in which scenario something is really missing, to make appropriate change in specific case.
Domination kicks in when the enemy are simply outplayed, with no chance whatsoever of making a comeback.

It doesn't always indicate that there is something wrong with a scenario: you could have the most balanced, most interesting scenario in existence, but if you have Legion of Boom coming up against pugs from The Unstable Equation, it will still always end in a 500-0 curbstomp.

The biggest issue here (one that people seem hesitant to touch on) is that scenarios are - 9 times out of 10 - curbstomps whenever there is a premade involved (or better players vs bad players): domination exists so that these sorts of games end as quickly as possible; they are no fun for any of the participants involved - be they winner or loser.

Removing domination will result in the following: pug/bad player-farming lasting longer, and people getting bored and losing interest quicker (because the vast majority of scenarios are curbstomps). While there were instances of domination kicking in when it shouldn't have, this points more to an issue with how the domination was working in the first place as opposed to one with domination itself.

Let's tackle the real issue here: bad/unorganised players being pitted against premades/better organised players (could be solo, duo, trios). RoR is, unfortunately, populated with incredibly disproportionate hardcore vs casual players: 90% of players are casual, they have never really felt a need to improve, or get organised; when they do run into a premade, it consequently ends up being a slaughter.

Domination should kick in ASAP to end these scenarios, but even when it does - do the losers go back to the drawing board and get organised? No, 9 times out of 10 they'll proceed to queue again, get slaughtered again, queue up again, get slaughtered again - ad infinitum. Removing domination has not changed this aspect; it merely prolongs the inevitable, prolongs the suffering.

While certain scenario maps are inherently flawed in their design (Logrin's Forge being a prime example), we need to start looking at the playerbase themselves, and asking what more can be done when you have top players pitted against bad players in the vast majority of scenarios: if you have the same old premades farming the same old pugs - regardless of the map used - then there is very little you can do to the scenarios themselves in an effort to alleviate this.

Pugs need to get organised themselves (very unlikely in RoR's current pug state): there's only so much you can do to the domination mechanic, or to the scenarios themselves, to alleviate current state of scenarios; if people insist on queuing for all scenarios, knowing full well that there are premades around, in PvE specs; unorganised; ad nauseam - nothing will change.

It is a futile endeavour if we are only looking at one part of the picture; if we are only looking at the scenario maps themselves, and not the fact that people are playing sloppy against tryhard premades, and expecting to have any semblance of a 'fair fight', then we will still be in the same position.

Force people to get organised. Force people to play properly. Don't pander to players who expect to have a decent shot of winning a scenario against a dominating force while putting in the bare minimum.

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