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Patch notes 22/12/2018

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wargrimnir
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Re: Patch notes 22/12/2018

Post#191 » Sun Dec 23, 2018 9:40 pm

JohnnyWayne wrote: Sun Dec 23, 2018 5:56 pm
Sulorie wrote: Sun Dec 23, 2018 5:01 pm
Stinkyweed wrote: Sun Dec 23, 2018 2:30 pm It was fun and a nice balance to the heal spec portion of the class. Perhaps it should have been tweaked to find the right balance rather than scrapped while they look for alternate solution.
...shelving and back to gearing the zealot I guess.
Or respec to dps. :P Its what I did.
What if I don't want to play DPS? **** me, huh?
You can heal just fine exactly as you did before, you can now dps exactly how you did before assuming you gear and spec for the roles. The mechanic is now still VERY strong, stronger than most other career mechanics

Heres what it does now - 40% cast time reduction, 40% ap reduction and 25% augmentation on instants AND movecast on certain abilities - this is a strong career mechanic by any estimation. Even now, this only requires a SINGLE point to be active and receive all the benefits.

Heres what it DID - 40% cast time reduction, 40% ap reduction and 25% augmentation on instants AND movecast on certain abilities, converted all your willpower/intelligence from items to the other depending on ability type cast AND made said abilities behave as if the AM/SH had full 15 point investment in respective trees, oh and additional strikethrough on various abilities. On top of that, the conversion was not grabbing an average, it was grabbing ALL of your base stats, adding them together, and reducing it by 70%, then using that TOTAL value for the modifier. Not at average of your stats * .7, but the total of your stats * .7, which is ridiculous. This premise is broken, ignores the fact that stats exist on gear at all, and wildly overshadows any player who is building for their spec in an intuitive manner who might not realize the messed up way this mechanic was working.

So if you were full heal spec, as much willpower as you could muster on items with defenses and tools without a single point in the DPS trees, you could hot yourself then use an attack and it would convert all your stats (not average stat contribution, contrary to speculation) over to intelligence AND fill up your DPS tree with 15 points worth of augmentation.

So yeah, Archmage/Shaman having their own mechanic, stealing the RP and Zealots mechanic and massively improving on it as well, then adding in the other base benefits that STILL exist was grossly exploitable.

Now don't get me wrong, if you played as a straight DPS sham/am you wouldn't have personally benefited from the system as the stat transfer only went onto other people in heals. If you played as a healer with a little tapping, you would be benefiting by a large amount but assuming you invested to Energy of Vaul/ Fury of da Green you only gained 2 additional mastery points of benefit (and a crazy stat transfer). However, if as said, you were a full heal spec, will some in the "lifetap tree" and zero in damage tree you could hot 5 people pretty fast and then drop 5 massive attacks on people with a huge intelligence boost AND as if you had a full 15 points invested in the DPS tree, if you cant see how this was exploitative and overpowered there may be no convincing you.

You may not have used it this way, you may have played in a manner which didn't synergize the mechanic to its extreme, if you played as a heal caster nothing has changed, if you play as a dps nothing has changed, if you want to be caster healer/tapper hybrid you will feel the pinch currently and if you were a caster healer/nuker that's gone forever. If you want to deal significant damage, you're going to need to invest in the damage stat, like every other class also needs to do. There's choices involved, and having it all simultaneously is busted.

There is nothing weak about the AM/Shaman classes, they may not be the best class, they may not be the worst but NO class on RoR is going to be the recipient of a monstrously complex omni mechanic which when used at the extreme produces literally insane results.

This isn't a player fault, it was a mechanic which became a rolling snowball and its now been cut back to what a mechanic should be which is a benefit, not a plaster cast over class/ability issues in this manner which gave all things to all specs, that's not what a mechanic is for.

To sum up, its had the potentially exploitative shifter system removed, this is not where the class will remain, its just where the class is right now. Its on the agenda, flaws are known and its in the works. We currently have a decent draft for a more dynamic mechanic that encourages different uses of the mechanic, and will require a bit of relearning to use effectively. Which, in itself, will be reviewed over time to make sure the values line up with effectiveness of the class as a whole.
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wargrimnir
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Re: Patch notes 22/12/2018

Post#192 » Sun Dec 23, 2018 9:41 pm

Lilim wrote: Sun Dec 23, 2018 8:55 pm Uh, the whole Patch notes in green. Did someone forget to close the bracket?
Thanks, fixed it. Not sure why the color didn't close itself.
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Sulorie
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Re: Patch notes 22/12/2018

Post#193 » Sun Dec 23, 2018 9:50 pm

wargrimnir wrote: Sun Dec 23, 2018 9:40 pm Heres what it DID - 40% cast time reduction, 40% ap reduction and 25% augmentation on instants AND movecast on certain abilities, converted all your willpower/intelligence from items to the other depending on ability type cast AND made said abilities behave as if the AM/SH had full 15 point investment in respective trees, oh and additional strikethrough on various abilities. On top of that, the conversion was not grabbing an average, it was grabbing ALL of your base stats, adding them together, and reducing it by 70%, then using that TOTAL value for the modifier. Not at average of your stats * .7, but the total of your stats * .7, which is ridiculous. This premise is broken, ignores the fact that stats exist on gear at all, and wildly overshadows any player who is building for their spec in an intuitive manner who might not realize the messed up way this mechanic was working.
Thanks for clarification. Would have been good to know back then, when the mechanic got implemented, because we were told different at that time, how it works. :)
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Morf
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Re: Patch notes 22/12/2018

Post#194 » Sun Dec 23, 2018 10:12 pm

Spoiler:
wargrimnir wrote: Sun Dec 23, 2018 9:40 pm
JohnnyWayne wrote: Sun Dec 23, 2018 5:56 pm
Sulorie wrote: Sun Dec 23, 2018 5:01 pm
Or respec to dps. :P Its what I did.
What if I don't want to play DPS? **** me, huh?
You can heal just fine exactly as you did before, you can now dps exactly how you did before assuming you gear and spec for the roles. The mechanic is now still VERY strong, stronger than most other career mechanics

Heres what it does now - 40% cast time reduction, 40% ap reduction and 25% augmentation on instants AND movecast on certain abilities - this is a strong career mechanic by any estimation. Even now, this only requires a SINGLE point to be active and receive all the benefits.

Heres what it DID - 40% cast time reduction, 40% ap reduction and 25% augmentation on instants AND movecast on certain abilities, converted all your willpower/intelligence from items to the other depending on ability type cast AND made said abilities behave as if the AM/SH had full 15 point investment in respective trees, oh and additional strikethrough on various abilities. On top of that, the conversion was not grabbing an average, it was grabbing ALL of your base stats, adding them together, and reducing it by 70%, then using that TOTAL value for the modifier. Not at average of your stats * .7, but the total of your stats * .7, which is ridiculous. This premise is broken, ignores the fact that stats exist on gear at all, and wildly overshadows any player who is building for their spec in an intuitive manner who might not realize the messed up way this mechanic was working.

So if you were full heal spec, as much willpower as you could muster on items with defenses and tools without a single point in the DPS trees, you could hot yourself then use an attack and it would convert all your stats (not average stat contribution, contrary to speculation) over to intelligence AND fill up your DPS tree with 15 points worth of augmentation.

So yeah, Archmage/Shaman having their own mechanic, stealing the RP and Zealots mechanic and massively improving on it as well, then adding in the other base benefits that STILL exist was grossly exploitable.

Now don't get me wrong, if you played as a straight DPS sham/am you wouldn't have personally benefited from the system as the stat transfer only went onto other people in heals. If you played as a healer with a little tapping, you would be benefiting by a large amount but assuming you invested to Energy of Vaul/ Fury of da Green you only gained 2 additional mastery points of benefit (and a crazy stat transfer). However, if as said, you were a full heal spec, will some in the "lifetap tree" and zero in damage tree you could hot 5 people pretty fast and then drop 5 massive attacks on people with a huge intelligence boost AND as if you had a full 15 points invested in the DPS tree, if you cant see how this was exploitative and overpowered there may be no convincing you.

You may not have used it this way, you may have played in a manner which didn't synergize the mechanic to its extreme, if you played as a heal caster nothing has changed, if you play as a dps nothing has changed, if you want to be caster healer/tapper hybrid you will feel the pinch currently and if you were a caster healer/nuker that's gone forever. If you want to deal significant damage, you're going to need to invest in the damage stat, like every other class also needs to do. There's choices involved, and having it all simultaneously is busted.

There is nothing weak about the AM/Shaman classes, they may not be the best class, they may not be the worst but NO class on RoR is going to be the recipient of a monstrously complex omni mechanic which when used at the extreme produces literally insane results.

This isn't a player fault, it was a mechanic which became a rolling snowball and its now been cut back to what a mechanic should be which is a benefit, not a plaster cast over class/ability issues in this manner which gave all things to all specs, that's not what a mechanic is for.

To sum up, its had the potentially exploitative shifter system removed, this is not where the class will remain, its just where the class is right now. Its on the agenda, flaws are known and its in the works. We currently have a decent draft for a more dynamic mechanic that encourages different uses of the mechanic, and will require a bit of relearning to use effectively. Which, in itself, will be reviewed over time to make sure the values line up with effectiveness of the class as a whole.
You are correct if you are talking about the first ab ex shaman/am changes way back but this isnt how it played out with the last changes, sure as a healer your dps was boosted if u had a stack or 5 to use up but the damage was still bad and if you were dps and had a stack or 5 of heal stacks your damage was not god like as you try to portray the main bonus was cast time reduction and thats it, i mean did anyone making these changes actually play the class effectively in non 1v1 pug environments ? u have under 200 int and around 500-600 willpower as a healer and around 800-900 int and 300ish willpower as a dps, these dont add up to monstrous dps numbers, far from it.

Currently trying to work the mechanic and lifetap as a healer im wasting ap, hitting targets for under 100 and healing for under 150, i really dont understand the need to gut it again, u had something great (not op), something am/sham healers have been asking for since the live game and decided to return sham/am healers back to having numerous disadvantages over the other 4 healers, once again we lack a decent st heal that doesnt take forever to build up and we all know hot spamming doesnt work here due to low def values compared to off values.

Why not just allow the 4 lifetap skills to benefit from the stat maths u described when consuming a heal stack instead ? this allows heal sham/am to continue to use the mechanic and does no harm to dps sham/am because generally all you do as dps sham/am is spam group heal or your only big st heal with cast time reduction when someone or your group is in trouble
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Stinkyweed
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Re: Patch notes 22/12/2018

Post#195 » Sun Dec 23, 2018 10:48 pm

Agreed, make baby step reductions to find what the devs feel is a sweetspot for the performance of the class rather than a sweeping gutting and possible future rebuild to some other mechanic. My opinion, for what its worth(less), is the heal shammie and heal AM where on the right path to making the class more viable and fun to play.
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wargrimnir
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Re: Patch notes 22/12/2018

Post#196 » Sun Dec 23, 2018 10:50 pm

Morf wrote: Sun Dec 23, 2018 10:12 pm You are correct if you are talking about the first ab ex shaman/am changes way back but this isnt how it played out with the last changes, sure as a healer your dps was boosted if u had a stack or 5 to use up but the damage was still bad and if you were dps and had a stack or 5 of heal stacks your damage was not god like as you try to portray the main bonus was cast time reduction and thats it, i mean did anyone making these changes actually play the class effectively in non 1v1 pug environments ? u have under 200 int and around 500-600 willpower as a healer and around 800-900 int and 300ish willpower as a dps, these dont add up to monstrous dps numbers, far from it.

Currently trying to work the mechanic and lifetap as a healer im wasting ap, hitting targets for under 100 and healing for under 150, i really dont understand the need to gut it again, u had something great (not op), something am/sham healers have been asking for since the live game and decided to return sham/am healers back to having numerous disadvantages over the other 4 healers, once again we lack a decent st heal that doesnt take forever to build up and we all know hot spamming doesnt work here due to low def values compared to off values.

Why not just allow the 4 lifetap skills to benefit from the stat maths u described when consuming a heal stack instead ? this allows heal sham/am to continue to use the mechanic and does no harm to dps sham/am because generally all you do as dps sham/am is spam group heal or your only big st heal with cast time reduction when someone or your group is in trouble
Except it didn't work this way. The mechanic added your Strength, Willpower, Toughness, Wounds, Initiative, Weaponskill, Ballistic Skill, and Intelligence up, then multiplied it by .7, this was the value consuming stacks was using as Intelligence.
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JohnnyWayne
Posts: 182

Re: Patch notes 22/12/2018

Post#197 » Mon Dec 24, 2018 1:28 am

wargrimnir wrote: Sun Dec 23, 2018 9:40 pm
JohnnyWayne wrote: Sun Dec 23, 2018 5:56 pm
Sulorie wrote: Sun Dec 23, 2018 5:01 pm
Or respec to dps. :P Its what I did.
What if I don't want to play DPS? **** me, huh?
You can heal just fine exactly as you did before, you can now dps exactly how you did before assuming you gear and spec for the roles. The mechanic is now still VERY strong, stronger than most other career mechanics

Heres what it does now - 40% cast time reduction, 40% ap reduction and 25% augmentation on instants AND movecast on certain abilities - this is a strong career mechanic by any estimation. Even now, this only requires a SINGLE point to be active and receive all the benefits.
I'll be reading the rest of it right now, but what I want to point out here is: My Balance Essence now heals for 22 hp. With High Magic stack. So yeah so much for that. :(

As heal AM it was fun to switch up, we had a mechanic that was promised at release in 2008 - both options ("damage" aka healing with an offensive skill and actual healing) and a valid option to finally play around the class mechanic. As a heal AM, I ignored besaid mechanic on live and we are back to that now. It was fun and engaging to have something new to play with and to optimize. At no point I had the intention to play DPS AM. But the flat healing on Balance Essence was feeling great for the class. At least for me.

I dont care for the stat switch. All I'd love to see returning is a base heal on Balance Essence. If you don't want it to deal loads of damage with cross stats adding, just increase its base heal to be valid I guess.

Edit: I'm through with your post. I completely agree or rather I never disagreed. My point is still what i mentioned before. Maybe take it into consideration. Or don't. Its your show after all. :)
Last edited by JohnnyWayne on Mon Dec 24, 2018 1:44 am, edited 3 times in total.

Sulorie
Posts: 7223

Re: Patch notes 22/12/2018

Post#198 » Mon Dec 24, 2018 1:31 am

wargrimnir wrote: Sun Dec 23, 2018 10:50 pm Except it didn't work this way. The mechanic added your Strength, Willpower, Toughness, Wounds, Initiative, Weaponskill, Ballistic Skill, and Intelligence up, then multiplied it by .7, this was the value consuming stacks was using as Intelligence.
What we understood was, when the mechanic was added, that heal spells use all attributes excluding intel multiplied by 0,7 to calculate spellpower, when consuming dmg stacks. The opposite for heal spells on dmg builds. Furthermore we all thought, that the spells use the normal tree ranks and not by default lvl15.
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Fey
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Re: Patch notes 22/12/2018

Post#199 » Mon Dec 24, 2018 7:56 am

No ill will intended on my end for what it's worth. Playing shaman really has been great fun these last two months. I just don't want to end up spamming group heal with my 2 hots in between. Engineer is now especially difficult to save my gits from. Particularly in keeps which as I healer I already hate participating in.

All the best trying to balance the mechanic.
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JohnnyWayne
Posts: 182

Re: Patch notes 22/12/2018

Post#200 » Mon Dec 24, 2018 11:36 am

Torquemadra wrote: Mon Dec 24, 2018 2:03 am
JohnnyWayne wrote: Mon Dec 24, 2018 1:28 am
wargrimnir wrote: Sun Dec 23, 2018 9:40 pm

You can heal just fine exactly as you did before, you can now dps exactly how you did before assuming you gear and spec for the roles. The mechanic is now still VERY strong, stronger than most other career mechanics

Heres what it does now - 40% cast time reduction, 40% ap reduction and 25% augmentation on instants AND movecast on certain abilities - this is a strong career mechanic by any estimation. Even now, this only requires a SINGLE point to be active and receive all the benefits.
I'll be reading the rest of it right now, but what I want to point out here is: My Balance Essence now heals for 22 hp. With High Magic stack. So yeah so much for that. :(

As heal AM it was fun to switch up, we had a mechanic that was promised at release in 2008 - both options ("damage" aka healing with an offensive skill and actual healing) and a valid option to finally play around the class mechanic. As a heal AM, I ignored besaid mechanic on live and we are back to that now. It was fun and engaging to have something new to play with and to optimize. At no point I had the intention to play DPS AM. But the flat healing on Balance Essence was feeling great for the class. At least for me.

I dont care for the stat switch. All I'd love to see returning is a base heal on Balance Essence.

Edit: I'm through with your post. I completely agree or rather I never disagreed. My point is still what i mentioned before. Maybe take it into consideration. Or don't. Its your show after all. :)
You were promised a mechanic which allowed you to heal cast and drop nukes on players without having a single piece of offensive gear or stat? :O

That said it is being looked at as a whole without a much convoluted and complex mechanic system bending things in a myriad of ridiculous ways. You shouldnt have to wait too long for a mechanic which benefits your core playstyle.
?????

Were you just hating on the mechanic I said I don't care for? ^^ Don't know how you came to the conclusion that i want to kill people form my post.

To make it ultra short: I like it when Balance Essence has a base heal, even if it does deal next to no damage.

Base heal is gone now. I really miss it.

The idea that was sold to people was to be agile between offensive or defensive and still be able to keep people alive along the way. With trade offs of course, but it never really was like it. Until now.

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