Recent Topics

Ads

Client Changelog 01/09/2018

Moderators: Developer, Web Developer, Language Forum Moderators

Forum rules
Before posting on this forum, be sure to read the Terms of Use
User avatar
Gravord
Suspended
Posts: 228
Contact:

Re: Client Changelog 01/09/2018

Post#81 » Sat Sep 01, 2018 9:20 pm

Azarael wrote:
Sat Sep 01, 2018 7:00 pm
Hell, there's even an argument for making the base mechanic work like Violent Impacts does.
Go on :)
twitch.tv/gravord

Ads
User avatar
Azarael
Posts: 5342

Re: Client Changelog 01/09/2018

Post#82 » Sat Sep 01, 2018 9:46 pm

Darosh wrote:
Sat Sep 01, 2018 9:15 pm
On the topic of responsibility and willingness to revert decisions:
Neither the reverts, nor the changes are - by themselves - an issue. It's the convoluted mess they create, as is, say, pushing patches without the support of the rest of the team and having jumbled up tooltips/mechanics for any period of time.
As to backend, as far I unterstood it the backend has undergone work, as did every other aspect of the game, during your hiatus ~ it appeared to be ironed-out for the most part, bar whatever shortcomings you are now tackling.
The "backend" constitutes almost all of the emulator. To be specific, I refer to the ability and buff systems, which I wrote and nobody but me really touches, and it hasn't been touched before now because the need for a redesign of some elements to make handling the persistent memory leaks that are crashing the server somewhat easier was something no one was willing to handle.
Darosh wrote:
Sat Sep 01, 2018 9:15 pm
Personal preference is a strawman if you use it as base for argumentation, just to contradict yourself later on down the road... the ability to use/support something you do not like doesn't turn you into a saint, it just shows that your personal preference is in essence meaningless (as is the personal preference of everyone else).
Is it to be expected, that if you someday happen do dislike xyz in the game, xyz is being hammered away on in spite of it functioning; in spite of its actually flaws and shortcomings?
Probably. Does that make me any different from, say, anyone else in the world? If something gets changed - by anyone - it means they are unhappy with it. The question is whether or not you trust my reasoning, and if you don't, and not everyone will then... I'm afraid my answer to that is "What the hell."
Darosh wrote:
Sat Sep 01, 2018 9:15 pm
You didn't solve the shortcomings with the mastery trees either, you essentially moved a problem from one tree to another while subjecting the entire class to the implications of it, whilst tampering with the bits unrelated to the issues that you deemed too strong of a competition for your rework ~ without any consideration whatsoever of how paper-play conflicts with what is actually being played.
Sorry, but I de facto did solve the problem I set out to solve. That's not arguable. You now spec single target for single target and you spec AoE for AoE. I set out not to create the perfect class but to prevent Skavenslayer from being used for everything - and I "tampered" (your continued use of this word is beginning to annoy me) with the parts of Skavenslayer which were specifically being used for ST. My core problem was never "ID is mandatory" - would I complain that Ether Dance is mandatory in damaging SM builds? My core problem was that ID did everything and obscured the actual ST trees. If you're going to reply to me, acknowledge that.
Darosh wrote:
Sat Sep 01, 2018 9:15 pm
In regards to the stacking hierachy, well, I take it, you rather change every single ability in the game to circumvent it - or rather the abilities that aren't to your personal liking - than the backend of it? For that as is, you've changed here a few abilities and there a few abilities, while the bulk of them are left untouched, you are essentially introducing more and more inconsistency for no good reason - is tackling the root of the issue really that much more of hassle than continuously fighting its symptoms?
Again - I changed 3 skills, two of which mirror one another, on a class, to be uncleansable, in response to a particular problem which was localized to those two classes. I see no reason whatsoever to cause further disruption by making the likes of Slasha, Mind Killer, Hack, Rend and other 3x stackers act as improved covers. You localize the change to the class you watn to change.
Darosh wrote:
Sat Sep 01, 2018 9:15 pm
I by no means am looking for perfection, for that frankly perfection is a state that will never be achieved, especially not with the remains of a dead game; I do criticise progess if its but a compilation of changes for the sake of change (or whatever is the cataclyst of your spree) ~ see link in the spoiler above.

In short, what I've written in the spoiler above, again:
You would do better if your structured efforts. That's about it.

Abbd.:
To rephrase the exactly above a tad: You are creating snapshots upon which you judge the movie.
I guess I've expended about as much effort as I'm prepared to against your opinion. I will judge myself by the end, and not opinions about the means. I have already said that I'm going to allow some time to stabilize while I work on some other things, but I was merely annoyed that the goalposts seem to have been moved to criticism of my means, rather than criticism of the end - I had read some comments earlier which seemed to be very similar - as if people couldn't criticise the class they were talking about in terms of its performance, so they looked harder for a nice stick, sufficiently tangentially related, with which to beat me.

WarriorOfAlliance
Posts: 17

Re: Client Changelog 01/09/2018

Post#83 » Sat Sep 01, 2018 9:48 pm

Foomy44 wrote:
Sat Sep 01, 2018 9:09 pm
In other words...


WarriorOfAlliance wrote:
Sat Sep 01, 2018 6:08 pm
It not because i wanna say somthing bad its because me and not only me fear what kotbs will be downbalanced like some happend with other classes.
I'm afraid my class is gonna get nerfed and that's not fair.

WarriorOfAlliance wrote:
Sat Sep 01, 2018 6:08 pm
Some of my freinds alredy drop they WL
Some of my friends really liked playing an obviously broken class that let them own everything in small scale 99% of the time with minimal effort, soon as their OP was gone they didn't wanna play that class anymore, not fair. Test changes aimed at making them balanced? Lol no ty.

WarriorOfAlliance wrote:
Sat Sep 01, 2018 6:08 pm
Order need some protection too not only destro.
I play Order and choose to look at everything from their PoV only, Destro is ez mode obviously. BTW if I mainly played Destro I would be saying the exact opposite thing.
So much sarcasm, it seems will be fun if left only destro side, defently. Somone seems think run with youslef is fun.

WarriorOfAlliance
Posts: 17

Re: Client Changelog 01/09/2018

Post#84 » Sat Sep 01, 2018 9:52 pm

Darosh wrote:
Sat Sep 01, 2018 9:15 pm
Azarael wrote:
Sat Sep 01, 2018 7:00 pm
Spoiler:
Darosh wrote:
Sat Sep 01, 2018 6:31 pm


One leads to the other - take a step back and look at the changes; their frequency, the reverts, the various aspects touched on at once, the conflicts with old changes issued before your comeback.
Then ask yourself what you'd think if you'd see someone operate like that within the first few weeks of getting back to a WIP-environment, how much confidence you'd have in the individuals ability to gauge the impact of w/e is being introduced.

Changes avoidance formulas, changing morale rates, rolling out broad changes to classes (mostly in the drip-down fashion you've spoken out against yourself) and tampering with backend stuff all at once ~ reverting some changes within days if not hours because of initial community backlash or gut feeling(?), others because you didn't inquire as to what you are changing is a default state or has already been revised (e.g.: Engi magnet). Furthermore, ducttape fixes like the strikethrough approach or the change to buffs to circumvent the mess that is the stacking hierachy. Also, conflicting and contradictory statements - e.g.:
You dislike spellbreaker being entirely dependant on a tactic, turn around make two masteries entirely dependant on one tactic (2h requires Violent Impacts to be remotely playable Violent Impacts, ST dw requires Violent Impacts to make the new filler in Trollslayer [PA] useable to begin with).
There are things you didn't see behind the scenes.

Firstly, I came back partly because of client control and partly in response to long-standing complaints about the state of RoR - gleaned during my time in the background since roughly the time of the code leak to the time where I rejoined.RoR.

The following were part of that:

- Disrupt / avoidance rates (which were reverted to what worked during my time - NOT to something original, and I did experiment with a renown passive to oppose the defense gained from a renown passive as well, which was perfectly valid)
- Morale (which was changed to work exactly like live - which I had been roundly criticised over not doing when I was the project lead in 2015/2016 - and again, nothing original here)

On broad changes to classes: The community is polarized on that and I don't view that as a battle that can be won. Some people will support it and some people will oppose it. You opine that I will eventually ruin the game and go back on myself in the end. I disagree - look at Archmage/Shaman. What is that if not a refinement of the old experimental mode? How much, exactly, have I gone back on, when you compare all of the changes that have ever been made? And would you prefer it if I simply didn't go back on myself and let it stand? It's almost as if you don't understand the necessity of experimenting with ideas, and the importance of being flexible. The difference between RoR and an established game is that I don't have the luxury of a test team behind the scenes to filter all this out from your eyes. It gets done on live, and problems that I don't anticipate get hotfixed - and quickly - as a result.

I think on that point, the proof will be in the pudding. I certainly see no reason to stop simply because people have a feeling it won't end well. If I see a problem that's crystallized and should be tackled, or a useless skill, or something else, then it will be dealt with, and any resultant problems from that will be dealt with as well. The mindset of not creating secondary problems led to garbage like Inevitable Doom being the go-to ST and AoE skill on Slayer.

As for the backend - that's part and parcel with the above. If you like, I can avoid "tampering" with the backend (how pejorative considering I originally wrote most of what I'm changing). But if you don't want me to adjust the backend, you will never see certain issues fixed. I do not wish to ignore the metaphorical burning kitchen in favour of saving the roof. The core has issues, and I will work on those as well.

On my personal preferences: That's an uncharacteristically weak point. I have expressed opposition to mandatory tactics. I have expressed opposition to them specifically where they form part of every single build on a class. Yes, having a tactic that is mandatory for ST builds on Slayer is not great. But I will, happily, take that over a given tree being weak, and there is no contradiction: I can dislike a concept and still support/use it. I would be a tool if I weren't capable of that. Hell, there's even an argument for making the base mechanic work like Violent Impacts does.

I also see nothing wrong with what I did on Envenomed Blade/Fervor either, by the way. Reworking the stacking system would cause major, and unnecessary, problems elsewhere in the game, and if you can cleanse a basic, stacking DoT skill from a class that can just as easily spec a build to try to kill you faster with burst damage, what's the point? The problem was specific to WH/WE, and so I solved it on WH/WE. I will support that wholeheartedly and without reservation.

You seem, in this case, to criticise progress because it is not perfection.

One final point and I made it a while back: This effort, and the major parts of it specifically, will not last forever. There are only a limited number of classes that have issues big enough to justify a rework. At this point the only ones that definitely should get one are KotBS and Chosen (on auras) for reasons that should be obvious to everyone, and the only ones that should optionally get one are DoK and WP (on melee). Nothing else needs reworking.
I've added a TLDR do my post before refreshing the page and seeing your response, it essentially sums up my concerns.
Spoiler:
Darosh wrote: TLDR:
How do you expect to find inconsistencies and bugs in say the backend shenanigans, if things are changed so rapidly?
I think you'd do yourself a favor if you stopped trying to please everyone and react within short notice to input sit back and craft a concept, then implement it.
I did not intend to claim that you'd eventually ruin the game, my apologies if it came off that way.

On the topic of responsibility and willingness to revert decisions:
Neither the reverts, nor the changes are - by themselves - an issue. It's the convoluted mess they create, as is, say, pushing patches without the support of the rest of the team and having jumbled up tooltips/mechanics for any period of time.
As to backend, as far I unterstood it the backend has undergone work, as did every other aspect of the game, during your hiatus ~ it appeared to be ironed-out for the most part, bar whatever shortcomings you are now tackling.

Personal preference is a strawman if you use it as base for argumentation, just to contradict yourself later on down the road... the ability to use/support something you do not like doesn't turn you into a saint, it just shows that your personal preference is in essence meaningless (as is the personal preference of everyone else).
Is it to be expected, that if you someday happen do dislike xyz in the game, xyz is being hammered away on in spite of it functioning; in spite of its actually flaws and shortcomings?
You didn't solve the shortcomings with the mastery trees either, you essentially moved a problem from one tree to another while subjecting the entire class to the implications of it, whilst tampering with the bits unrelated to the issues that you deemed too strong of a competition for your rework ~ without any consideration whatsoever of how paper-play conflicts with what is actually being played.
In regards to the stacking hierachy, well, I take it, you rather change every single ability in the game to circumvent it - or rather the abilities that aren't to your personal liking - than the backend of it? For that as is, you've changed here a few abilities and there a few abilities, while the bulk of them are left untouched, you are essentially introducing more and more inconsistency for no good reason - is tackling the root of the issue really that much more of hassle than continuously fighting its symptoms?

I by no means am looking for perfection, for that frankly perfection is a state that will never be achieved, especially not with the remains of a dead game; I do criticise progess if its but a compilation of changes for the sake of change (or whatever is the cataclyst of your spree) ~ see link in the spoiler above.

In short, what I've written in the spoiler above, again:
You would do better if your structured efforts. That's about it.

Abbd.:
To rephrase the exactly above a tad: You are creating snapshots upon which you (and all of those who cannot read your mind) judge the movie (spot bugs, inconsistencies and powercreep).
Sign almost to each word.

Foomy44
Posts: 522

Re: Client Changelog 01/09/2018

Post#85 » Sat Sep 01, 2018 9:54 pm

Spoiler:
WarriorOfAlliance wrote:
Sat Sep 01, 2018 9:48 pm
Foomy44 wrote:
Sat Sep 01, 2018 9:09 pm
In other words...


WarriorOfAlliance wrote:
Sat Sep 01, 2018 6:08 pm
It not because i wanna say somthing bad its because me and not only me fear what kotbs will be downbalanced like some happend with other classes.
I'm afraid my class is gonna get nerfed and that's not fair.

WarriorOfAlliance wrote:
Sat Sep 01, 2018 6:08 pm
Some of my freinds alredy drop they WL
Some of my friends really liked playing an obviously broken class that let them own everything in small scale 99% of the time with minimal effort, soon as their OP was gone they didn't wanna play that class anymore, not fair. Test changes aimed at making them balanced? Lol no ty.

WarriorOfAlliance wrote:
Sat Sep 01, 2018 6:08 pm
Order need some protection too not only destro.
I play Order and choose to look at everything from their PoV only, Destro is ez mode obviously. BTW if I mainly played Destro I would be saying the exact opposite thing.
So much sarcasm, it seems will be fun if left only destro side, defently. Somone seems think run with youslef is fun.
In other words:

"and if I don't get my way I quit"
Current Loves: Chompy 74, ShroomStew 70
Retired 40+ Destro: TrollBlood, DoomBeast, DoomDoctor, Doomshadow, DoomDisk, FunkFoot, Bloodwell
Retired 40+ Order: CatNap, Shadeling, StormWall, Bangman

User avatar
tazdingo
Posts: 620

Re: Client Changelog 01/09/2018

Post#86 » Sat Sep 01, 2018 10:06 pm

Foomy44 wrote:
Sat Sep 01, 2018 8:42 pm
Could you please explain how this patch gave them extra bomb potential? I must be missing something.
cuz lifetap shammies can now pick up waaaagh frenzy for 1pt in a tree they're already going up, create a dps tactic set and switch to it whenever they're pubbing/soloing/just feel like dpsing in order to turn fury of da green into a bomb. a 5sec cd bomb ye but it now scales with intel and you're still gonna be casting some hots, instants and rezzing inbetween

not potential, flexibility. in pubs

Foomy44
Posts: 522

Re: Client Changelog 01/09/2018

Post#87 » Sat Sep 01, 2018 10:13 pm

tazdingo wrote:
Sat Sep 01, 2018 10:06 pm
Foomy44 wrote:
Sat Sep 01, 2018 8:42 pm
Could you please explain how this patch gave them extra bomb potential? I must be missing something.
cuz lifetap shammies can now pick up waaaagh frenzy for 1pt in a tree they're already going up, create a dps tactic set and switch to it whenever they're pubbing/soloing/just feel like dpsing in order to turn fury of da green into a bomb. a 5sec cd bomb ye but it now scales with intel and you're still gonna be casting some hots, instants and rezzing inbetween

not potential, flexibility. in pubs
8 sec CD, and that ability does less damage than the actual bomb ability in the dps tree, not to mention a heal spec that just switches his tactics/gear isn't going to have anywhere near the actual dps output of a dps spec with nothing invested in the dps tree, especially now that he needs to spend another tactic point just to make this 1 attack sorta viable (it still does crap damage FYI, less than the actual bomb ability with less targets and longer CD)

BTW healers having the ability to switch into a crappy dps setup when OOC in a pug scenario is hardly the same thing as "expect to see dps shamans everywhere, like, 2016 levels"

And just FTR, it's really not good, tried hard to make int lifesteal dps setup work last night but giving up a tactic slot to get what is basically a nerfed version of the old lifetaps (tactic make you unable to move during cast time ever which is pretty important on a spec who's main strength is it's kiting potential) doesn't work as well as you may thing.
Current Loves: Chompy 74, ShroomStew 70
Retired 40+ Destro: TrollBlood, DoomBeast, DoomDoctor, Doomshadow, DoomDisk, FunkFoot, Bloodwell
Retired 40+ Order: CatNap, Shadeling, StormWall, Bangman

WarriorOfAlliance
Posts: 17

Re: Client Changelog 01/09/2018

Post#88 » Sat Sep 01, 2018 10:25 pm

Foomy44 wrote:
Sat Sep 01, 2018 9:54 pm
Spoiler:
WarriorOfAlliance wrote:
Sat Sep 01, 2018 9:48 pm
Foomy44 wrote:
Sat Sep 01, 2018 9:09 pm
In other words...




I'm afraid my class is gonna get nerfed and that's not fair.



Some of my friends really liked playing an obviously broken class that let them own everything in small scale 99% of the time with minimal effort, soon as their OP was gone they didn't wanna play that class anymore, not fair. Test changes aimed at making them balanced? Lol no ty.



I play Order and choose to look at everything from their PoV only, Destro is ez mode obviously. BTW if I mainly played Destro I would be saying the exact opposite thing.
So much sarcasm, it seems will be fun if left only destro side, defently. Somone seems think run with youslef is fun.
In other words:

"and if I don't get my way I quit"
Nope you wrong absolutely. I hope i can not change, but little correct some changes but seems not, its not only my opinion about some way class correction.

Ads
User avatar
tazdingo
Posts: 620

Re: Client Changelog 01/09/2018

Post#89 » Sat Sep 01, 2018 10:36 pm

Foomy44 wrote:
Sat Sep 01, 2018 10:13 pm
BTW healers having the ability to switch into a crappy dps setup when OOC in a pug scenario is hardly the same thing as "expect to see dps shamans everywhere, like, 2016 levels"
people don't care that it's not meta, shammy has always been really popular and the only reason they haven't been swarming lately is because of how terrible they've been the past couple years, like barely even functioning as healers. with the new lifetap changes + the ability to toss out more aoe when bored in a siege without your regular groupmates (do u not remember how firestorm changes were linked to rise in magi?), i believe the gobbocalypse is upon us once again

i, for one, welcome this

Foomy44
Posts: 522

Re: Client Changelog 01/09/2018

Post#90 » Sat Sep 01, 2018 10:46 pm

tazdingo wrote:
Sat Sep 01, 2018 10:36 pm
Foomy44 wrote:
Sat Sep 01, 2018 10:13 pm
BTW healers having the ability to switch into a crappy dps setup when OOC in a pug scenario is hardly the same thing as "expect to see dps shamans everywhere, like, 2016 levels"
people don't care that it's not meta, shammy has always been really popular and the only reason they haven't been swarming lately is because of how terrible they've been the past couple years, like barely even functioning as healers. with the new lifetap changes + the ability to toss out more aoe when bored in a siege without your regular groupmates (do u not remember how firestorm changes were linked to rise in magi?), i believe the gobbocalypse is upon us once again

i, for one, welcome this
Honestly you get more AoE damage even as a healer by going mid tree for Scuse Me and new Gorks Barbs than you will by trying to use this aoe lifesteal as a bomb attack. Firestorm has 100+ range, had 100% uptime, does more damage, applies instantly, and doesn't need LoS so MUCH easier to use. Fury has 80 foot range so doubt you will be bombing the walls as easily as you think, 8 sec CD, 2 second cast time that breaks if u lose LoS, less damage, less potential targets, and slotting that tactic means you have to gear int so you will give up your whole healing mastery setup and all your healing potential just to get 1 crappy aoe attack for when you are bored at keep walls. I doubt this will lead to the gobbocalypse personally, guess we wait and see.
Current Loves: Chompy 74, ShroomStew 70
Retired 40+ Destro: TrollBlood, DoomBeast, DoomDoctor, Doomshadow, DoomDisk, FunkFoot, Bloodwell
Retired 40+ Order: CatNap, Shadeling, StormWall, Bangman

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 8 guests