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Server hotfix notes 06/08/2018

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GodlessCrom
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Re: Server hotfix notes 06/08/2018

Post#71 » Mon Aug 06, 2018 7:17 pm

Renork wrote: Mon Aug 06, 2018 7:02 pm
Go re-read your posts and tell me you're not painting mdps as victims of ROR. If you are getting "blown up" because you're incompetent and can't properly play a mdps, then that's your issue. Your "numbers" are above, now you can quit your trolling, thanks.
I'm not even remotely trolling, and I'm not sure why you're so triggered, but maybe chill out ma'am. I spend 99% of my time as a tank in either a duo or a six-man too, not as an mdps. You apparently spend your entire playtime as a magus trying to solo down healers in the pug sc, and then complaining on the forums about it. I think I experience a great deal more success and a great deal less frustration than you. Perhaps try playing a different class or archetype. It may improve your mood.

I appreciate Ramasees and Geni provided numbers showing that healers with max willpower have too much native disrupt. I think if the stat defense formula is tuned differently, we wouldnt need bandaids like True Strike. I dont know if we should go back to the AoR formula, as Geni suggests, but certainly the formula could be tweaked. I think Ramasees also makes good points when he notes that healers have little reason to stack willpower, due to low return on investment vis a vis heal output, and that perhaps stat calculations in general (or at least some of them) could be revisited.
Rush in and die, dogs - I was a man before I was a king!

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Reesh
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Re: Server hotfix notes 06/08/2018

Post#72 » Mon Aug 06, 2018 7:23 pm

Azarael wrote: Mon Aug 06, 2018 7:13 pm Now, ruthless brutality towards one another aside - what do you guys want to do? Remove True Strike and revert to the formula RoR used during my time, or work with the present situation? While Disrupt from Willpower is certainly high, is it desirable that healers have such significant resistance to magic in particular? Is it desirable that casters are encouraged to target classes other than healers?
Remove true strike, revert the formula to one during your time, or into old aor one.
From there it can be tuned even more.
What Geni said is pure black and white why the current state of willpower-disrupt issue is abysmal.
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Foomy44
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Re: Server hotfix notes 06/08/2018

Post#73 » Mon Aug 06, 2018 7:24 pm

Azarael wrote: Mon Aug 06, 2018 7:13 pm Is it desirable that casters are encouraged to target classes other than healers?
I always thought this gave an advantage to Order since the engi/magus mirror means they have 1 more class that's capable of attacking healers so never been a fan of it. Even if it's not actually big advantage and my perception is skewed it seems like a strange thing to have to balance around IMO. Healers are a prime target and being a dps that's not able to damage them is not fun. Tanky tanks disrupting the hell out of me I got no problem with.
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Rumpel
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Re: Server hotfix notes 06/08/2018

Post#74 » Mon Aug 06, 2018 7:26 pm

Azarael wrote: Mon Aug 06, 2018 7:13 pm Now, ruthless brutality towards one another aside - what do you guys want to do? Remove True Strike and revert to the formula RoR used during my time, or work with the present situation? While Disrupt from Willpower is certainly high, is it desirable that healers have such significant resistance to magic in particular? Is it desirable that casters are encouraged to target classes other than healers?
Healers know Magic and they know how to survive...so they best know how survive against magic....close thread. :lol:
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Ramasee
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Re: Server hotfix notes 06/08/2018

Post#75 » Mon Aug 06, 2018 7:28 pm

Azarael wrote: Mon Aug 06, 2018 7:13 pm Now, ruthless brutality towards one another aside - what do you guys want to do? Remove True Strike and revert to the formula RoR used during my time, or work with the present situation? While Disrupt from Willpower is certainly high, is it desirable that healers have such significant resistance to magic in particular? Is it desirable that casters are encouraged to target classes other than healers?
Genisaurus wrote: Mon Aug 06, 2018 7:10 pm
Spoiler:
GodlessCrom wrote: Mon Aug 06, 2018 6:56 pm Following what Geni said, perhaps the stat defensive formula should be altered. This would have the effect of making everyone in the game squishier, as the defensive formula applies to all stats (i.e. our parry chance and our dodge chances all go down significantly as well) but perhaps its worth it so Magi can kill healers in the pug SC.
No squishier than they were on live. It's one thing to decide a single class, or archetype needs more survivability. It's another to quadruple everyone's defenses across the board. If TTK were really too high, there are better ways to reduce it. Especially because, as I mentioned before, increasing avoidance doesn't decrease damage, it mitigates it completely. Depending on RNG, you're either dying just as fast as you were before, or you're mitigating as much damage than a tank.

Balancing TTK in an MMO isn't an issue of "average damage over time", which can be impacted by both mitigation and avoidance. It's a factor of, every second, how much damage are you taking, how much can you mitigate, how much can you heal.
If I have a BW fighting a Shaman, and I want to increase TTK, I can either give the Shaman a flat 50% disrupt, or I can cut all damage and heals by 50%. Which one feels better? Doing 1k damage per hit instead of 2k still feels a lot better than doing 0 damage half the time.
I want a mortal kombat announcer to say brutality everytime this happens in the thread.

I actually hear what Geni is saying about the gut-dropping nature of dealing 0 damage to a target. So I'll throw a fancy compromise!

Keep the parry/dodge/disrupt formulas the same as they are now. Keep the new true strike renown bonus. But now instead of avoiding ALL damage when you make an avoidance roll you, you negate 50% of the damage out-right PLUS your toughness value against that attack is increased by 2x (placeholder).

With this change, toughness gains a duality to its stat, and tanks won't lose too much survivability. But everyone else gets squishier or at least has to put more points into toughness and out of somewhere else. This would reduce much of the free survivability you can get if you (imo foolishly) stack willpower to soft-cap values.

Edit: Block remains the same and always negates all damage

2nd Edit: DoTs would just do this reduced damage per tick. Secondary effects such as debuffs would not go through an avoidance.
Last edited by Ramasee on Mon Aug 06, 2018 7:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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GodlessCrom
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Re: Server hotfix notes 06/08/2018

Post#76 » Mon Aug 06, 2018 7:30 pm

I think Geni's comments on TTK philosophy are sound as well: being able to mitigate damage more efficiently rather than avoid it outright might be an agreeable solution to all parties. I think reverting the formula to old-RoR or AoR state would be something worth testing out as well. Caveat is that all forms of defense are hit by that, not just disrupt. Means parry and block and dodge. No one has all that much dodge, but parry/block changes will have an impact, if only due to all tanks now receiving more damage from outright attacks as well as guard.
Rush in and die, dogs - I was a man before I was a king!

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Genisaurus
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Re: Server hotfix notes 06/08/2018

Post#77 » Mon Aug 06, 2018 7:34 pm

Azarael wrote: Mon Aug 06, 2018 7:13 pm Now, ruthless brutality towards one another aside - what do you guys want to do? Remove True Strike and revert to the formula RoR used during my time, or work with the present situation? While Disrupt from Willpower is certainly high, is it desirable that healers have such significant resistance to magic in particular? Is it desirable that casters are encouraged to target classes other than healers?
GodlessCrom wrote: Mon Aug 06, 2018 7:17 pm I appreciate Ramasees and Geni provided numbers showing that healers with max willpower have too much native disrupt. I think if the stat defense formula is tuned differently, we wouldnt need bandaids like True Strike. I dont know if we should go back to the AoR formula, as Geni suggests, but certainly the formula could be tweaked. I think Ramasees also makes good points when he notes that healers have little reason to stack willpower, due to low return on investment vis a vis heal output, and that perhaps stat calculations in general (or at least some of them) could be revisited.
As someone who hasn't played the game since before these changes went live, I would suggest that reverting back to AoR values will at least give a familiar baseline from which to observe and document the problem, establish a high-level design direction, and from there present a coherent solution that moves in said direction.

Even if the AoR values turn out to be too low, and even if it's decided that increasing avoidance values across the board is in accordance with what the overall design direction of the server should be, I think quadrupling native defenses of every class is too much. A healer could have 500 willpower today and still have double the maximum native disrupt% they could get in AoR.

And it's not just healers, either. A character with 250 willpower has ~5% more disrupt with these changes than they had on AoR. That's not nothing.

But I fully admit my opinion here isn't worth spit, because these changes had no impact on my playtime, positive or negative. I'm just stating a point on principle.

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Renork
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Re: Server hotfix notes 06/08/2018

Post#78 » Mon Aug 06, 2018 7:35 pm

Azarael wrote: Mon Aug 06, 2018 7:13 pm Now, ruthless brutality towards one another aside - what do you guys want to do? Remove True Strike and revert to the formula RoR used during my time, or work with the present situation? While Disrupt from Willpower is certainly high, is it desirable that healers have such significant resistance to magic in particular? Is it desirable that casters are encouraged to target classes other than healers?
You're going to get backlash regardless of your choice. At this point players have gotten accustomed to ignoring casters and the moment you start seeing healers getting killed by RDPS the flow of tears will start running all over the forums (I mean, look how many people think the disrupt rates are fine even after being shown numbers). Yesterday was the first time in ages that I saw healers actually detaunting me and my sorcy friend. I don't think anything too drastic should be done right away though. Do I think BW's/Sorc's should be able to time-stamp everyone like before? No.


@GodlessCrom Honey, the only one triggered here is you :^) you got your numbers, right? You do not play a caster at all, so now you can continue to complain about how hard playing a mdps and gloat about how "successful" you are duoing and 6 manning the oh so competent pugs that you fight against on a daily basis. I'm sure plenty of people here truly care about your success on this highly thriving and competitive 6 man environment.

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GodlessCrom
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Re: Server hotfix notes 06/08/2018

Post#79 » Mon Aug 06, 2018 7:43 pm

Genisaurus wrote: Mon Aug 06, 2018 7:34 pm
Azarael wrote: Mon Aug 06, 2018 7:13 pm Now, ruthless brutality towards one another aside - what do you guys want to do? Remove True Strike and revert to the formula RoR used during my time, or work with the present situation? While Disrupt from Willpower is certainly high, is it desirable that healers have such significant resistance to magic in particular? Is it desirable that casters are encouraged to target classes other than healers?
GodlessCrom wrote: Mon Aug 06, 2018 7:17 pm I appreciate Ramasees and Geni provided numbers showing that healers with max willpower have too much native disrupt. I think if the stat defense formula is tuned differently, we wouldnt need bandaids like True Strike. I dont know if we should go back to the AoR formula, as Geni suggests, but certainly the formula could be tweaked. I think Ramasees also makes good points when he notes that healers have little reason to stack willpower, due to low return on investment vis a vis heal output, and that perhaps stat calculations in general (or at least some of them) could be revisited.
As someone who hasn't played the game since before these changes went live, I would suggest that reverting back to AoR values will at least give a familiar baseline from which to observe and document the problem, establish a high-level design direction, and from there present a coherent solution that moves in said direction.

Even if the AoR values turn out to be too low, and even if it's decided that increasing avoidance values across the board is in accordance with what the overall design direction of the server should be, I think quadrupling native defenses of every class is too much. A healer could have 500 willpower today and still have double the maximum native disrupt% they could get in AoR.

And it's not just healers, either. A character with 250 willpower has ~5% more disrupt with these changes than they had on AoR. That's not nothing.

But I fully admit my opinion here isn't worth spit, because these changes had no impact on my playtime, positive or negative. I'm just stating a point on principle.
Makes sense. As I said, I'd very much be willing to test it out. It is worth noting that survivability in general was higher on AoR due to higher stats, particularly wounds (and armor, but nonapplicable in this case) as well as certain procs from armor sets that would provide absorbs or self-heals. And the meta on AoR was still 100% melee trains, IIRC. But regardless, I think your points make sense and there is a respectable design philosophy underpinning them, which is better than having no design philosophy at all :D
Rush in and die, dogs - I was a man before I was a king!

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Re: Server hotfix notes 06/08/2018

Post#80 » Mon Aug 06, 2018 7:50 pm

Azarael wrote: Mon Aug 06, 2018 7:13 pm Now, ruthless brutality towards one another aside - what do you guys want to do? Remove True Strike and revert to the formula RoR used during my time, or work with the present situation? While Disrupt from Willpower is certainly high, is it desirable that healers have such significant resistance to magic in particular? Is it desirable that casters are encouraged to target classes other than healers?
Reverting to the old disrupt formula sounds like a great idea, if it feels like casters become too strong over it then I think the better choice at that point is to nerf their damage rather than nerfing their fun (disrupt, disrupt, disrupt... etc.)

I still think that you should consider simply changing back True Strike to a 20 point investment but making it disrupt strikethrough only though, melee classes and physical ranged classes have more than enough tools to mitigate (or nullify) parry and dodge and in order to gain the disrupt strikethrough from True Strike you have to invest RR; more than a fair compromise.

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