Patch Notes 14/1/17

[Jaycub]

>the tools we have to remove them

Order no longer has triple shatter, we have 1 shatter on a 5 sec CD and it's melee range, can be defended against...

Proc group come into battle with procs, and get the 1st reapplication CD free. It's a fruitless endeavor to strip more than 1 person consistently.

And making mara more of a must have is kinda dumb?

6v6 community is deader than it really ever has been in a long time, you aren't gonna see enough testing for a while to really scope out what these changes have done if anything, so everything right now is really just theorycrafting based on prior experience and reading these changes.

But idk why people are posting angrily, if you read Az's 1st response to my post it's pretty evident that when they have the ability (client control?) procs will be dealt with in a more suiting manner.

[Jevanko]

please make WP's 45sec also!

It is an aura not a buff....

[Cimba]

>the tools we have to remove them

Order no longer has triple shatter, we have 1 shatter on a 5 sec CD and it's melee range, can be defended against...

Proc group come into battle with procs, and get the 1st reapplication CD free. It's a fruitless endeavor to strip more than 1 person consistently.

And making mara more of a must have is kinda dumb?

6v6 community is deader than it really ever has been in a long time, you aren't gonna see enough testing for a while to really scope out what these changes have done if anything, so everything right now is really just theorycrafting based on prior experience and reading these changes.

But idk why people are posting angrily, if you read Az's 1st response to my post it's pretty evident that when they have the ability (client control?) procs will be dealt with in a more suiting manner.

Ähm... SM with WW kinda solves that problem for order. Does that make him mandatory? No it doesn't, same with marauder. It's something you need to consider when you build your group. As every setup will have weaknesses you just weigh the pros and cons.

Concerning the 6on6 scene. Well you see Nyky posting so I believe he's back with his team and LoB wanted to do some 6on6 on the weekend but we had some technical issues. Sorry about that again. I have seen Nails running around too. So actually it's looking better than it has been for months...

[DefinitelyNotWingz]

This thread amazes me. I fully agree that there was an issue with procs. That there was no real point in shattering before this patch. Now there is a decent change, .....

Decent chance

Lets check!
Your grp: 2 rdps 1 mdps AM

usual destro setup: 1 shatter enchantment 5s cd

(not considering parry which happens quite a lot)

- we need 3 gcds to shatter flames of ruin as it is covered by AM resistance buff and flameshield
- remove procs from mdps -> 15s
(you might argue that first shatter does not cost 5s as it is off cd)

- reach 2 rdps 3 times each -> XXXs
- in the best case 30s
- so 45s to shatter enchantments from every dps
- not taken into consideration: running / catching, parry, cd increase

So 45s to remove all the flames of ruin if you use shatter everytime its off cd, in the best case scenario. -> decent chance apparently
This also needs to happen twice, when the fight starts the buffs are off their 45s cd.

Summary, use 2 classes with shatter enchantment for example dok,bo,bg.
To me it feels like rock, paper, scissors. You encounter a grp with 1 shatter -> procs op. You encounter a grp with 2-3 shatter enchantment -> gf.

Btw, Iam not hating on grps, that use procs, they have to since not using it would leave you at a serious disadvantage against grps that do. So no offense.

[TenTonHammer]

Considering that both BO and DoK are staples in Destro grps i dont think its that big of an issue

[DefinitelyNotWingz]

Considering that both BO and DoK are staples in Destro grps i dont think its that big of an issue

mdok

[Cimba]

This thread amazes me. I fully agree that there was an issue with procs. That there was no real point in shattering before this patch. Now there is a decent change, .....

Decent chance

Lets check!
Your grp: 2 rdps 1 mdps AM

usual destro setup: 1 shatter enchantment 5s cd

(not considering parry which happens quite a lot)

- we need 3 gcds to shatter flames of ruin as it is covered by AM resistance buff and flameshield
- remove procs from mdps -> 15s
(you might argue that first shatter does not cost 5s as it is off cd)

- reach 2 rdps 3 times each -> XXXs
- in the best case 30s
- so 45s to shatter enchantments from every dps
- not taken into consideration: running / catching, parry, cd increase

So 45s to remove all the flames of ruin if you use shatter everytime its off cd, in the best case scenario. -> decent chance apparently
This also needs to happen twice, when the fight starts the buffs are off their 45s cd.

Summary, use 2 classes with shatter enchantment for example dok,bo,bg.
To me it feels like rock, paper, scissors. You encounter a grp with 1 shatter -> procs op. You encounter a grp with 2-3 shatter enchantment -> gf.

Btw, Iam not hating on grps, that use procs, they have to since not using it would leave you at a serious disadvantage against grps that do. So no offense.

Marauder with Unstable Convulsions.
-3 sec channel to remove all procs (on average)
-BO can throw in an additional in case of bad luck or parry

The mdps is without procs within the first couple of seconds (or any enchantment for that matter, that includes AM Hots). Depending on if you chose to chase the rdps or stay on the melee the BW might consider to rebuff the procs. Which you can immediatly remove again.

Usually the mdps is the one who profits the most from the procs due to AA in general, AA speed tactics and fast weapons. Or in case of off SM due to a fast hitting channel. If proc damage is your only concern you can now just chase the SW to prevent him from using rapid fire. For which you have excellent tools as a marauder. As you're facing a BW you can even use your range knockdown to close the gap.

In conclusion, yes I believe that you have a decent chance at removing the procs from all relevant targets. Should it come for free? I don't think so. The BW has to gimp his own damage and invest into two tactics to make the procs worthwhile. Why should a counter come for free?

PS: CD increase on order? Really? Who runs an s&b IB in a proc grp...

[peterthepan3]

Concerning the 6on6 scene. Well you see Nyky posting so I believe he's back with his team and LoB wanted to do some 6on6 on the weekend but we had some technical issues. Sorry about that again. I have seen Nails running around too. So actually it's looking better than it has been for months...

Absolute rubbish. It is nowhere near as active as it was, but to the best of my knowledge you weren't doing it back then?

proc meta has no place in any pvp game that claims to focus on skilled gameplay (just as wf/tovl weapons were op).

I don't blame you for using it and advocating that others do, but for some of us who prefer individual merit and skill over imposed, motonous and necessary tactics just to compete, it's incredibly boring.

Shatter will become useful, but further changes - as Nyky said - may be needed imo. Given that op gear sets like wf won't be here, there is no valid argument to keep procs as strong as they are, i.e. defensive tanks melting like butter.

[DefinitelyNotWingz]

Marauder with Unstable Convulsions.
-3 sec channel to remove all procs (on average)
-BO can throw in an additional in case of bad luck or parry

The mdps is without procs within the first couple of seconds (or any enchantment for that matter, that includes AM Hots). Depending on if you chose to chase the rdps or stay on the melee the BW might consider to rebuff the procs. Which you can immediatly remove again.

Usually the mdps is the one who profits the most from the procs due to AA in general, AA speed tactics and fast weapons. Or in case of off SM due to a fast hitting channel. If proc damage is your only concern you can now just chase the SW to prevent him from using rapid fire. For which you have excellent tools as a marauder. As you're facing a BW you can even use your range knockdown to close the gap.

In conclusion, yes I believe that you have a decent chance at removing the procs from all relevant targets. Should it come for free? I don't think so. The BW has to gimp his own damage and invest into two tactics to make the procs worthwhile. Why should a counter come for free?

PS: CD increase on order? Really? Who runs an s&b IB in a proc grp...

I am not sure if you have ever played against an order proc grp, basically you cant just go for the rdps right away.
Even if the marauder gives up a tactic and probably mutated aggressor (since rr isnt sufficient), he will not touch a good rdps more than once in 60s. Using the small amount of time you have while being in range for a 3s channel that does not deal any significant dmg is kinda meh.
But ok if you get caught by marauders on a regular basis its the rock, paper, scissors game I mentioned.
Making marauder mandatory to be able to fight proc grps is most likely not the right way to fix procs.
An internal cd would do.
Anyone who thinks procs dont need an internal cd should just get a class like SW and use rapid fire while having procs. Magic
Also if playing with procs just requires rebuffing every 45s and the counterplay is a wild gamble of getting in range with the right classes and wasting cds while being exposed to 2 other dps with procs then sth is a bit op.

PS: Today I saw a slayer with shatter limbs, there you go.

[Azarael]

If you're advocating changing procs any further, think carefully about what the results will be.

Procs are differentiated from % DPS increases because their output is variable, based on both RNG and the frequency at which you can inflict direct damage. They promote compositions and builds which exploit fast attack rate. Both adding an ICD to BW/Sorc procs and making them inflict damage based upon the original damage's strike (as I had suggested) destroys this niche and moves them closer to being effective +X% damage, which works the same regardless of your group composition and is therefore much more bland.

If you don't work around introducing some kind of counterplay rather than nerfing (unless forced - see aura procs), you risk reducing the strategy pool by ruining the uniqueness of procs.