Reintroductions and reflections.

[Ugle]

When did these banned, unbanned, not yet banned, never to be banned players, the only common denominator being their trolling nature on forums and in game suddenly grow such thin skin that when a dev who answers their petulant stomping of their feet with a no-nonsense answer, their heads should suddenly be put on a stake?

I fully understand the trying-to-reestablish-a-good-communication-with-the-players, but don't forget this is the internet and some people are first and foremost trolls that the rest of the (usually not so vocal) community is better off without.

This is turning into a witch hunt of certain people who have contributed more for all of us than all suddenly unfairly banned players together and if I were a team lead i would not allow for it in any way. (Fortunatley I am not)

[Darosh]

{Albeit seemingly directed at solely the staff, it's addressed to anyone reading it (including myself).}

And all that doesn't really change my initial question - what is the player that started this glorious topic looking for?

There have been several cases of players being sanctioned for inside jokes and 'internal communications' slipping into public channels, e.g.: a certain spanish guy comes to mind that wrote something to his buddy that someone interpreted as 'homophobic slur' or whatever the **** they projected into it.
There has been a wall of text by the head GM denouncing fellow humans (yes, what they did is ****, the reaction unterstandable and we are all sympathetic with the RoR devs as far as that incident is concerned) as gawd knows what kind of subhuman, vile and what-not things, yet it is being preached ad infinitum how this is a safe place of sorts.

See, I don't give a single **** about 'mean words' or whatever is nowadays paraded as 'hate-speech' whenever people see fit ~ or how you in particular handle your buisness...

But, if you sanction people for jokes, dissent and whatever the **** you see fit (go bonkers for all I care, it's your project and lifetime spent), atleast drop your holier than thou attitude ~ you are making a mockery of yourselves.

I do not intend to bring politics into this, so I don't ~ what for, the following applies to each and every kind of twisted and not-so-twisted affliation, walk of life and ideology, irregardles of Zeitgeist:
You don't get to go around calling people out for things they do, that you indulge in yourself the very moment you turn your back and move out of the **** spotlight and center of attention.
You will do at times, it's part of human existence, isn't it? However, start to act just like that and have it become your modus operandi - and yourself painfully predictable - and it will invetiably backfire, for that you are - as we all are - just a **** human and ultimately a role model for the next sad dimwit in line to continue the cycle of stupid.

In short:
Don't want to be mauled by words? Grow a **** spine and quit playing out the persona you are seemingly forced into - in reality force yourself into.

Animus, anyone? Go have a read, you have plenty of wits and yadayada, make use of it.

{For my personal satisfaction: I have predicted this shitshow in a couple of posts a few months ago so accurately - as if I made a living off of this kind of unnecessary, yet fundamental waste of time... - it makes my **** day, if not my week. Thanks for participating.}

E: Added a very important bit in the header.

[Gravord]

@Gravord

Do you have someone specific in mind? I think you refereed to me on this page of this thread, am I right? Am I the only one? I'm not sure being vague helps to clear the air, which you apparently want.

Actually mainly i was pointing out Wargrimnir dodging accountability for my permaban.

What I find disturbing is the bans that have been overridden. We're not talking 24 bans but permanent bans that were not only unjustified but vindictive. If the community is sanctioned unjustly there has to be an equal reckoning for the person/people that handed out the ban.

This seems like one of the clearest case of who watches the watchers. People had their accounts unjustly seized. What's to stop it from happening again?

This is a case of admitting systemic issues with the overreach of certain kinds of bans. Not an abuse of staff members who use the extent of that overreach to it's limit.

Could you please explain based on which rule breach i was perma banned?

I didnt got anywhere near breaking any forum rules, yet i was permaban solely on a whim. Yet he refuse to admit it, which festers the wound for me. Not much of a clearing air if perpetrator see no own fault.

A project like this cannot have "clear structure and accountability" because of the nature of the hard power. Any person who has been entrusted with source code access has the theoretical power to begin another server if they feel aggrieved. The person who pays for the hardware chooses not to involve himself. The only power in RoR is soft power, and it's earned; this project is changed with influence, not attempts to sunder the staff.

Whats stopping any dev member from implementing changes on his own then?
Or GM banning ppl out of whim only to be unban by another staff member?
In both cases damage is done and no accountability exist to enforce those behaviors from repeating.

Its not vengence Telen. Aza topic didnt last 2 days without players being disrespected by other staff members already and its not going to stop unless they are removed.

Dude, you asked how staff are removed in a thread that was conciliatory and about wanting to reconcile past problems. You might not have meant it the way it came across but that would wind me up too. Its a voluntary project people have put effort into so we can play a dead game. Its not a corporation with a HR department. If I'd put in my time and then people started demanding I be removed well I can tell you I'd have a very fruity response.

Yes its voluntary project. But players coming and playing it also does it voluntary. Main goal should be of growing this community and project with it, yet if feel the goal was set to silence anyone daring to not agree on everything with permabans. Do you honestly believe project run like that have future?

[Kragg]

When did these banned, unbanned, not yet banned, never to be banned players, the only common denominator being their trolling nature on forums and in game suddenly grow such thin skin that when a dev who answers their petulant stomping of their feet with a no-nonsense answer, their heads should suddenly be put on a stake?

I fully understand the trying-to-reestablish-a-good-communication-with-the-players, but don't forget this is the internet and some people are first and foremost trolls that the rest of the (usually not so vocal) community is better off without.

This is turning into a witch hunt of certain people who have contributed more for all of us than all suddenly unfairly banned players together and if I were a team lead i would not allow for it in any way. (Fortunatley I am not)

Spot on.

[moorfs]

Spoiler:

The players were once involved with the project even if thats just creating backgrounds for yaliskah to use but they felt like they were valued, for a long time now players have not been valued at all.

I do not know if I understood the sentence correctly. Are you refering to Art Contests?

In general note, relative to your general posts, we can only admit that the relations between the staff and some players are complicated, and have regrettable consequences for all in the end.

I’m not the OP, but I have to express as a representative of the "3rd faction" in this story the point of view on the other side of the curtain.

ALL the people involved in the RoR project as members of the team did it out of passion (as far as I know), and none of them seek any glory (as far as I know) for what it did. If that were the case, I'm afraid he made a mistake and realized that.

That being said, being one of the main initiators of the WarEmu project, then RoR, I can attest to this:

With the progress of the project, the expectations of the community of players became larger, and our mistakes of choice were more and more quickly condemned.

I leave to each one the leisure to imagine what pressure some of us, more exposed than others (and I think that Azarael will be able to attest) have been subject to and have had to endure for all these years, resulting some epidermal reactions.

I will gladly admit that it does not necessarily excuse everything, but what is a game for most of you, brings a whole new aspect to our eyes. We do not play to develop a project. We work hard for a long time, despite the criticisms that can come out and we are led to make sometimes questionable choices that may displease. With the passive-aggressive or aggressive-aggressive consequences that we all know.

Obviously, some will object that we do not listen to the community of players enough, the fact is that the latter is not unanimous. So who to listen to? Who among you is more legitimate than your neighbor to express a choice or a suitable solution? Who is biased? Who is not? Your opinions are important, your suggestions are as important, but without any offense, in the end, the choice is ours. If we are wrong, responsibility rests with us, and with the help of time (and more often the technical means), we try to correct our mistakes. Sometimes it takes a lot of time. Sometimes more is needed.

I committed to this project several months before the closing of the official server. I never wanted to do it to leave a trace of my passage on earth . I did it so I could continue playing. Just stupidly.

And I like to think that everyone who joined me did it for the same reason.

That being said, i can just forge the wish, we all let past behind us, and try our best each other to move on for the best.

I guess what i mean by this is the interaction between players and staff, remember the times when elven would mess around spawning all types of fancy mounts, when abilities were being recreated, rvr was being recreated etc etc player feedback/thoughts were important and it gave players a feeling of belonging and that the staff were just players themselves having fun, that has been lost.
I could point to a bunch of different implementations where players said x didnt work like that or x is wrong and they would be asked to provide proof, proof would be provided and it would be shrugged off and we would be told something along the lines of it doesnt matter anyway im not changing it, the defendable dot ticks being an example, these sort of responses make players feel like no matter what they say or whatever proof they provide it isnt going to do anything anyway, some will just say **** it why bother and give up others will argue the point because they have a passion to see things work correctly and in turn be punished.

Im not by any means defending myself or others who have had heated debates/arguments with staff but there needs to be an element of professionalism shown by staff (even though staff are volunteers) to set a good example and show the server in positive manner.

Im also not saying every staff member joined for status and a coloured forum name or ingame gm tag but i know that in some cases that status was the first reason to join the team, i dont want to name names but these ppl shouldnt of been allowed to join in the first place, this leads towards the leadership of the server and again have to point back to sigmarpriest and what a good job he done and how him and the role he served has been badly missed.


Your last sentence is spot on, look forward not back but in order to look forward some ppl need to accept that they have made mistakes, Az has made his peace so to speak and always did do so when making class changes back when, others need to do the same in regards how they have handles themselves (not publicly if they dont wish to but with the staff team) , myself included in terms of being rude towards certain ppl.
Not going to agree with those who want the staff team to be cleaned/some ppl to go, everyone can change i just hope that instead of engaging in a conversation via typing the staff team can get in voice chat and talk it out and be honest, typing doesnt show emotions or get proper responses.

Lastly go back 2 years and see what has changed since then because that was when the server in terms of positive feelings was at its strongest which shouldnt be the case, it should be now as client control should give a new positive light.

[Azarael]

I would have thought you would know how a project such as this one works. What's stopping people from doing what they want? The number of people that agree with whoever has the strongest position, whether through force of personality, contributions, financial support, vision, or whatever else. That's what gives that person authority. Can someone be ejected by general or implied consent if they do not adhere to the vision of the majority of the team? Yes. That's happened before, though usually such people leave of their own accord as others work around them. Can this occur when the figure in question is a powerful enough member of the team? No, it cannot.

The reality of it is that the way the project develops is mostly down to the philosophy and management style of the people most of the team accept as leaders or who are otherwise driving forces. That isn't going to change because no one person on this project will ever, ever have the authority to act as a military commander and structure the project like that. It was attempted way back in the past, before I even joined, and it failed miserably because that person didn't have any power to act as if he were a dictator.

[wargrimnir]

Actually mainly i was pointing out Wargrimnir dodging accountability for my permaban.

This is a case of admitting systemic issues with the overreach of certain kinds of bans. Not an abuse of staff members who use the extent of that overreach to it's limit.

Could you please explain based on which rule breach i was perma banned?

I didnt got anywhere near breaking any forum rules, yet i was permaban solely on a whim. Yet he refuse to admit it, which festers the wound for me. Not much of a clearing air if perpetrator see no own fault.

You're talking about a forum ban right? Nothing happened to your character in-game? I don't keep track of that stuff, as already explained in one of my previous posts. Why it happened, as evidenced by your current ability to stir the issue further, was probably someone crossing the line. Or just straight up mistakes in slapping the wrong person. I don't recall, and I'm not interested in digging through it.

Moving forward, maybe we can do better.

[Gravord]

Actually mainly i was pointing out Wargrimnir dodging accountability for my permaban.

Could you please explain based on which rule breach i was perma banned?

I didnt got anywhere near breaking any forum rules, yet i was permaban solely on a whim. Yet he refuse to admit it, which festers the wound for me. Not much of a clearing air if perpetrator see no own fault.

You're talking about a forum ban right? Nothing happened to your character in-game? I don't keep track of that stuff, as already explained in one of my previous posts. Why it happened, as evidenced by your current ability to stir the issue further, was probably someone crossing the line. Or just straight up mistakes in slapping the wrong person. I don't recall, and I'm not interested in digging through it.

Moving forward, maybe we can do better.

Forum permaban. No need keep track of permabans? Interesting.
Great response though: "stir the issue further", "cross the line", "slap wrong person". Havent found any of those as reasons to ban or permaban in rules. Could just sum it up as "dared to speak something GM disagree with".
Maybe you can do better, maybe. Do you want though?

[Telen]

Yes its voluntary project. But players coming and playing it also does it voluntary. Main goal should be of growing this community and project with it, yet if feel the goal was set to silence anyone daring to not agree on everything with permabans. Do you honestly believe project run like that have future?

Ive argued with Torque about changes in the past over several pages. Never got so much as a warning. As long as you just state your opinion and dont say Im right your an idiot Ive never seen a problem. Some of the players that have been banned the server is way way way better without. I remember some of them from live that are on the forums from the other server and at least 2 I suspect are actual sociopaths.

[Nekkma]

I fully understand the trying-to-reestablish-a-good-communication-with-the-players, but don't forget this is the internet and some people are first and foremost trolls that the rest of the (usually not so vocal) community is better off without.

I agree with this. The problem is that your description of a troll that the community is better of without fits one of the staff members perfectly (when it comes to forum behaviour, not other work for the project).

Also, I think you are wrong when you think that only banned people have an issue with the attitude from staff towards players. I have never been banned, warned or had any type of disagrement with staff (outside of balancing issues) and I left a few months ago in part because of the staffs general shitty behavoir and tone on the forums. I know that I am not the only one and none of those I refer to was ever banned. Heck, this is not a new problem. Years back I openly criticized Aza for, what I considered, rude behaviour on the forum. As I recall, your old crew from live left as a guild just because of not agreeing with how staff interacted with players.

Finally, I think the point of this thread has been made and it is in the communitys interest to pondere its outcome, close it and move on.