improving the general RvR-system - not just my two cents

[satori]

zerging empty keeps/zones is a current problem and there a lot of threads in this forum trying to solve it (some of them didn't even start with that topic but are automatically drifting towards it)

this is my attempt containing an anti-zerg measure

i don't say it is finished or perfect at all so i encourage you to post critically - but i don't want to hear a simple "no", i want the reason why you think it is bad and in the ideal case a way to make it better!
oh and if something is not clear i'm happy to answer all of your questions

also i have no idea what amount of coding is needed by our hard working devs to implement all of this so i apologize in advance...

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here is my proposal:

- there is only one zone open at a time and a zone is locked when one side takes the enemy keep (like it is right now)

- remove all NPCs in the PvP-area (except warcamp-guards ofc) so there are no guards at BOs or keeps, this includes the keep-lord

- BOs are taken by simply capturing the flag (takes ~20 seconds), they neither have a lock timer nor is there a reward for taking them

- keeps are taken by capturing a flag in the lord-room and that takes ~90 seconds (ofc after the doors are down)

- the maximum damage a zerg can deal to a keep-door is fixed so you cannot blast them down in no time (would be pretty much the same as: the door can only be damaged by a battering ram)

- the keep door can only be damaged if the attacking side holds a certain amount of BOs in the area
- the amount needed is in relation to the proportion of order vs destro in a given area
- for instance when there is way more order the more BOs they need to hold to even be able to damage the door and on the other hand destro needs less BOs (or none in the extreme cases) to attack the order keep
- the amount of BOs needed should be updated frequently

- the rewards for killing players are boosted by ~100% to what they are now and there is no bonus for killing players near BOs or keeps

- when a zone flips there is a lock tick to every player in the zone as a reward for the winning side that is as high as the current reward for a keep, loosing side gets no tick

- AAO is active like it was on live (scaling can be different but there should be some form of AAO)

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so why all that?

- the system should prolong the time a fight over a zone lasts

- this, the removal of the NPCs and the changed reward-ratio of kills vs PvDoor should lead to actual PvP

- the fights should get more small-scale(ish) because the bigger one side gets the more they have to split up, even numbers on both sides works fine here as well (every faction has to hold 2 BOs in that case to attack the keep)

- if one side is the extreme underdog they get big bonuses: AAO and the chance for more even fights because the attacking side has to split up into 6 parts (all 4 BOs, the keep they want to attack and the other keep that could be attacked by the underdog at any time cause there are so few of them that they don't have to hold any BOs to damage the keep door)

- not giving a bonus to player kills near objectives gives incentive to cut off supply lines

- zerg needs to act more organized, you cannot simply clump up and hope to roll over a zone cause one single player can stop you by taking an undefended BO

- all this should make RvR really interesting for premades and could even lead to new specialized group compositions (how long can a group of 3 tanks and 3 healers hold a BO?)

- AFK leeching zone-locks should not be a problem because locks happen way more infrequent with this system

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and now let me finish with some quotes so you can see how my brain got here:

Spoiler:

You need to nerf down the rewards for taking BOs and keeps, and increase them when fighting is going on in the zone.

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Fighting players and not afking at keep doors should be rewarded, not punished. Sadly, right now the most effective way to get renown is to roll through a zone as quickly as possible with no resistance.

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it would not be an incentive to actually fight the zerg so it is useless

what we need is a system that splits up the zerg (like removing lock timers on BOs and only making keep door take damage as long as attacking side holds 3+ BOs)

Not quite a good idea as the defense against this is that the defenders have to split up to recapture the BO's = BAD IDEA to create a opposition with a meaningful resistance if outnumbered. For that task it's good to bring some NPC's to the assistance.
So in order to help out the defenders why not add auto spawning NPC's at the BO which will retake the objective, after not being killed by

opposition during when a Keep take is underway for at least 2 minutes?

i really don't see how splitting up the zergs can be a bad thing, small fights in WAR have always been way more fun than spamming AoE in a group of 50+ players like a braindead zombie
and when the zerg is plit up the defending force can try to group up to fight one part of the attackers, keep in mind that attackers in my described model above have to split up on the keep and 3 BOs to have a chance to damage the keep door, so defenders should have a really good chance to win vs only 1/4 of the attackers AND you could remove all NPCs

i would like to see not a single NPC in the PvP areas at all, make it simply a flag in the keeps and BOs that takes some time to capture (like it was on live at some point i believe) so the actual fighting is never PvE and always PvP

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BO's arent 'taken' they need to be 'held' in order for it to be classed as captured. If there are no players standing at the BO it is neutral. If one side kills everyone holding the BO it immediately flips to being owned by the victors as they now have players holding it. If the attackers then move from it, it turns neutral until someone else turns up. There is no renown tick from BO's. The map just shows who currently owns a BO, it does not indicate that it is under attack, the players need to broadcast this in region.

Keep doors can only be attacked (take damage) if all BO's are held by a faction (or two BO's whichever is deemed reasonable). This makes it easier for the underdog to halt a keep attack by taking and holding a BO, or just skipping from one to the other, turning them neutral. The 'zerging' side would need to split between holding BO's and attacking the keep. This might then scatter the fight all over a zone which should make premades happier (I've never been in one so guessing here) and give pugs a reasonable tactical game and requirement.

The larger fight would be at the keep, with smaller fights trying to hold the BO's. Sometimes the larger blob attacking the keep would need to stop and help retake BO's with some of them then staying to hold them. Once the keep door goes down, BO's stick to being owned by the winning side but are now irrelevant and dont need holding, and everyone can converge on the keep if they want to, but dont actually need to for getting rewards (see below).

Increase the renown gained from player kills, add in AAO, remove the tick from a keep capture, change it to a zone tick only once the keep is captured so that it doesnt matter where you are in the zone you still get a juicy tick for capturing the zone. I hate the idea of people running from a perfectly good fight just because they need to get to the keep. The losing side gets a smaller failed zone defense tick.

Loot roll is zone wide for the winning side, again removing the need to be in the right place at the right time just for a larger tick and chance of loot. Loot is then mailed to people.

P.S.: i apologize for my rather imperfect english, it is not my mother tongue

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suggestions from this thread:

i like the idea with the bos.

What i would ad is a time limit to actually take the keep after the door is opened (i think there is one already but it isnt shown anywhere) and the time should be shown to both sides.

you could also ad: if other side takes ALL bos back, the keepdoor gets closed within 1 or 2 minutes (and enemy keep attackable of course)?

could make some nice races then and increas tension etc.

global defense (e.g. when attacked keep gets its door closed) tick should go to any player on the realm who took part in any rvr activity within that lock period imho.

and i still would like a global bonus when zone locks (or defense tick) for kills made during the zone lock to all players who took part in any rvr activity.

[Razid1987]

- there is only one zone open at a time and a zone is locked when one side takes the enemy keep (like it is right now)

Zerging is always gonna be a thing in a 1-zone system.

So if you wanted to combat zerging in general, and not just it terms of taking empty keeps, you would need to make a 2 or 3 zone system. If you force all players into 1 zone they are gonna flock together. strength and rewards in numbers.

[satori]

If you force all players into 1 zone they are gonna flock together. strength and rewards in numbers.

maybe you should read the rest of my post

if they stay together they won't be able to take a keep in this system

[Azarael]

I'd support that.

[satori]

I'd support that.

really glad to hear that any idea on the amount of coding needed?

[Razid1987]

If you force all players into 1 zone they are gonna flock together. strength and rewards in numbers.

maybe you should read the rest of my post

if they stay together they won't be able to take a keep in this system

Maybe you should stop assuming I didn't.

The fact of the matter is that I did, and what you are saying wasn't clear at all. All you said was that the damage on the door was "fixed".

And even if that's the case, it doesn't change anything. Everyone who sees that the keep is under attack is gonna want a piece of the cake in terms of rewards.

You said you wanted constructive critism. There, you have it.

[TooGraphic]

That's a whole lot to change at once. AAO and increased rewards for kills in general would be a good start imo. The core system may be fine with the right incentives.

[mirrorblade]

lot of wrong idea, pls look other rvr topics.
And ram mechanism is not working, and for melee is boring

[navis]

I think some ppl kind of take the whole NPC thing too seriously as it really doesn't have a huge impact on things but they do set the minimum requirements to take a BO. You could say that also just clicking on a BO is a bad design because just doing that with a single player is a dumbed down game mechanic.
It really doesn't matter what way to go (with/without NPC) because each system can completely succeed or fail because of other issues.. But one way I look at them is like like how live events have simple NPC which simply guide you to certain areas, much like how Renwons is gained from Flag caps. I don't think the NPC should be acting like the NPC in the PvE areas at all!! NO
If the NPC are in the RvR then give them a different behavior - no pve spec required and no real pathing like in PvE zone so the whole tanking thing is not mandatory.
This is easy to accomplish - NPC fulfill their role more like story elements more like the Warlords in the city. The NPC to do something like automatic Ram-the-door, automatic healing assist for underdogs defense...
Keep lords - keep them but change the behavior to be new and not like old... When there is more construction behind some RvR things like Keep takes I think it will be better than having all things just flags to tap.

[Sulorie]

What stops both sides from taking 2 BO and attacking the enemy keep, while hoping to be faster than the other side?
In fully loop-sided situation and no BO lock timers, the underdog can never hold a BO. You might interrupt the siege for a few minutes or seconds, as long as it takes to recap the BO.