improving the general RvR-system - not just my two cents

[Coryphaus]

no "anti aao" would completely negate the usefulness of AAO; imagine this scenario: im in emp defing keep we have 60% aao, the enemy sees they have the anti aao and they say "screw his lets go to an empty zone", now defenders loose aao cause their no attackers and they loose intrest in defending.

WARs pvp is ment to be about large fights and massive warbands not 6 mans and solo roamers

[satori]

Spoiler:

Satori, I apologize in advance for the length of this post. I pared it down as much as I could and still get readers reference as to how I wear my "shoes" to make it easier for anyone to step into them for my PoV.

so instead of the AAO like it was on live you propose a kind of negative AAO for the zerging side? interesting idea! that would pretty much force the zerging side to X-realm and balance out the population because they would not get any renown while staring down the keep door / PvDoor IF (and only if) this negative AAO also effects the keep- and lock-rewards
but that would mean that the underdog can simply stay in their warcamp to prevent any RR-gains by the zerging side :/
so i am more a fan of the positive AAO like it was on live

In 2008, after four solid years (the 'opening' years, before the term "Vanilla" was ever seen beside it's title) of World of Warcraft, and growing to love the BG PvP system, equally detesting the rampant X-realming, then consequently hating the Arena System, ; I came to W.A.R. after watching six months of Paul Barnett work his sales magic on my psyche.

A couple reasons I left W.o.W.: Barrens Chat became a moniker for loathsome, lonely players speaking detestable things, racial epithets spouted by them and even some "normal" players far too often and gold-farmer spam. Can anyone tell W.o.W. was the first MMO I'd ever heard of, let alone played? Computers and gaming weren't an integral part of my life simply because I was born before Neil Armstrong did the "Michael Jackson" on our Lunar surface.

Like many my age ("old fart" could easily be applied here) there's a different dynamic that goes into friendships, even using the word "friend" sparingly. (Nowadays, properly using the term "acquaintance" is akin to throwing dog **** in someone's face in public). Our friendships, online or off, having maybe never physically met in person some of the mates we ran with for years on end, tend to be let go of far less easily than what seems normal 'these days'.

Get to the point, old man!

All the above is for reference, maybe even a bit of empathy in the fast-building text-wall forming in my head. I'll do my best to make my point, but it's important enough to me, and the woman I love, who sits 2 feet away from me when we're able to be on at same time, which to this day I'm still amazed by, because even when I started MMOs, female players were incredibly rare, the ones that did play (and played well) mostly lied and pretended to be male to subvert any harassment for having a double chromosme (even the previous sentence should set one thinking about what a truly different mind set many of us "older" players have regarding HOW WE SPEND OUR TIME with players we (at least in W.A.R.) comfortably referred to as family, our hearts breaking when someone decided to leave the guild(s) creating a hollow space that lasted too long in what's supposed to be a fantasy adventure that takes us AWAY from bad feelings and family problems. For us, it was impossible to treat December 18, 2013, as anything other than the anniversary of the mass death of an entire family. Drrrrraaaaaaaaaamaa.

Just before Blizz added those ghey-ass blood elves (not relating to homosexuality, but to "metrosexual" game avatars) to The Horde, I purchased my copy (Gamestop, regular edition, 2 Discs, $54.98+Tax, taking 4-1/2 hours to download plus another hour and a half for restart, defrag and virus scan) of W.A.R. The main purpose, or enticement was the only thing I could discuss for months before release: ONE FACTION PER REALM. Period. End of discussion. Having played Horde all my W.o.W. life, only considering playing Alliance if I wanted to feel like I was cheating on my wife, I decided I was going to play, side with, and live on "the good guys' side". I fully intended to roll a Whie Lion (melee Hunter? I'm THERE! ) and a Warrior Priest. My decision changed the moment I saw the Destruction avatars. There was no question I would play the dark side in every MMO I ever played. Not enough fantasy in the "good side" for me... an arm that morphs into three different weapons? I'm THERE!

And I would be relieved of any notion of abandoning that decision due to the main I reason I purchased W.A.R. I naively believed, due to cost, size of hard drives then, that cross-realming just wouldn't be considered by the players who flocked to W.A.R., never even considering that even if one truly wanted to be "spy mode", that one could actually (or would) run Skype the same time as Vent and just (very carefully, haha) switch between the two for covert actions. More naive was my belief that the majority of players actually thought like I do (an assumption many consumers make, imo) and were truly here to "... take up arms, and pick a side..."

I quickly learned that players eschewing honor to their chosen side were to be criticized and ostracized into oblivion the same way I'd witnessed the 'death' of Role Playing in W.o.W. I've had the experience of being put on the "watch list" by more than one former guild BECAUSE I was proud to not have rolled the opposition, ever. To this day, on RoR, I'm not trusted by many simply because I don't play Order.

[Logic, no matter how dense, no matter how real is about the size of a 'stick pin'; no matter how hard one throws it at the audience it's gonna bounce off their clothes and not penetrate; I feel it's necessary to use emotion as an inertia boost. I glue the stick pin of Logic to the end of a telephone pole, grip the pole at the other end and attempt to step into a Home Run Swing, giving that pin what's necessary to become fully lodged in the listeners/readers chest, leaving them no choice but to "feel that logic burn" aiding them in standing in my shoes. That buildup is sometimes an eye-burning text wall, and I know no other way to get anyone to "see" my PoV]

TL;DR-

Please don't ask me, my family, or anyone that is truly a "One-Realmer" that I must X-realm to help my chosen side win. It will be the "Blood Elf Invasion" for me all over again. And I don't want to leave this game and my friends and family. To me, there's nothing more important than simple, stoic dedication. Nothing. In addition, knowing it's not considered, for some strange reason, I'm fully down for a reinstatement of the One Realm Per Faction. "Per IP" would more to my liking. That's just me though. Been playing practically by myself for almost 7 months now. Don't mind giving other players something to "LoL" at.

Good Hunting

ok Gnash please let me say at first: you seem like a person i would want to sit down and have a cup of tea with talking all day so badly! reading your post brought so much joy to me... i feel truly happy now! if you didn't already i suggest thinking about making writing your hobby

please never apologize for the length of your posts, i love reading, especially if it is written as well as this one

WAR was my first MMO back then, i played from release (and even a little bit of the beta) until it died, a good friend of mine (i was still in school) talked me into it, he was a warhammer-fan as he played the table top but i never heard of it, we had a group of friends all living in the same city that played games together, having LAN-partys every few months and even doing other activity, we were climbing every friday, even going on holiday once a year for 2 weeks together to Arco (northern Italy) to climb the mountains there, ofc you put your life in other peoples hands doing that since someone has to secure you with the rope so we really trusted each other,
as you can see it was more than a little family that we hat there, i am still living together with 2 of them in the same flat (+now with my gf) and the group still contains my best friends,
and since we did alomost everything together in terms of gaming we all started playing WAR, needless to say that communication in TS while playing was really great cause we saw each other every day in RL,
we even made a LAN-party (in 2010 i think) to play some WC3 tower defense but after one day of doing that one of them loged into WAR to check the AH or something during the LAN, 5 minutes later we all were online playing WAR together for the next 3-4 days sitting in the same room, we never had a more successful run in PvP no TS needed!

then WAR died... still can remember how sad i was that day...
some of us, me included, began a search for a game (MMO) that has PvP as good as WAR had, we tested a lot of stuff, pretty much everything relevant out there but nothing even came close, our group of friends was split up to different games, some play LoL now, some liked shooters more, 2 of them + me found the best solution for PvP in elder scrolls online (as you can see in a lot of my youtube videos, that was the time i started streaming) but it really wasn't the same

then i heard about RoR, the very same day i tried it, fortunately i did not have to download the game again cause it was still installed on my PC, out of nostalgia i never deleted it all the old memories came back and now, a few months on this server, i can't imagine playing anything else in terms of PvP, some of the old gang already joined me, the rest will follow for sure

since we are such a sworn in group realm pride isn't really our thing as long as we all play together, we often switch to the side where we get AAO to actually have some fights and not just PvDoor
for me dedication is as important as it is for you: i am dedicated to WAR and having great fights in the game with close friends at my side, but this isn't always possible if we can't switch sides, so please don't judge or dislike me if i disagree with stopping X-realmig in general per IP-lock, the better way to stop it is with a good RvR-system (maybe the one i proposed in the beginning of this thread could work, testing is required!)

IP-lock would in fact be pretty bad for me: imagine i have to go to work in the late shift and played WAR until i had to go, then my gf comes home and wants to play WAR herself (we only have this one PC atm so it would be same IP or whatever number you wanna use to ensure it is the very same PC) but she wants to play the other faction, well now she can't cause it is locked

oh and as long as there is a number used that can be changed in some way (like the IP) a lock can be bypassed - and will be! there is always that one guy...

hoping to see you around and thanks so much for your great post!
satori

[satori]

to all of you on the last 1-2 sides discussing X-realming and solutions for it:

what do you think about my system? a change of the whole RvR-system like that could counteract X-realming and zerging of only one side

introducing new stuff like negative AAO or a realm pride buff seems really bad as it can be abused or create other problems

[zulnam]

Great idea with the BOs. That's grade-A design right there!

A damage limit is also a good idea, for the door, until siege weapons are implemented. An easier way, however, to do this would be to give the door object very high defense stats, so as to mitigate all damage types.

While I love the feel of having NPC guards in the keeps, I admit it sounds more of a hassle in our current condition (server support from personal funding; smaller player base). Removing guards might also remove some of the latency issues that go along with all that pathfinding and collision detection.

The flag cap at 90 seconds leaves a huge exploit option for enemies who are already inside the keep. Players might start logging out alts within keeps, just for the possibility of an easy grab.
It would be best to keep the boss, while removing all other NPCs.

[dkabib]

Dont remove the lord! I really enjoy it, its an aid for the defenders. Im ok with adding a flag for capture, but only after the lord is down.

Now for BOs, no lock timer, no reward, no guards? Really? No thanks...
BOs seems fine the way they are now, although I don't like it when we are faced with BO timers and can't do much but wait.

[satori]

The flag cap at 90 seconds leaves a huge exploit option for enemies who are already inside the keep. Players might start logging out alts within keeps, just for the possibility of an easy grab.
It would be best to keep the boss, while removing all other NPCs.

yea it should get fixed like it was on live: when you log off in keep or BO range and log back in again you respawn in the WC, then this problem should be solved without the lord

Dont remove the lord! I really enjoy it, its an aid for the defenders. Im ok with adding a flag for capture, but only after the lord is down.

enjoy it? it is PvE inside of a PvP-zone, if you like PvE that much i suggest WoW
an aid for defenders it is indeed but that is what i am trying to get rid of, in my system there should be no need for that as the attackers have to split up on the BOs as well to take the keep

Now for BOs, no lock timer, no reward, no guards? Really? No thanks...
BOs seems fine the way they are now, although I don't like it when we are faced with BO timers and can't do much but wait.

don't simply say "no" ^^
could you please tell me a reason why BOs like they are right now are more fun than they would be in my changed system? all i see in your post is a reason against the current system...

[Ramasee]

 I suggest a tiered system for each zone. I tried to incorporate other good ideas in this thread and earlier. I might have missed some considering I binged read.

When a zone is first unlocked all of the BFOs are unlocked and vacant. Keeps are locked. During this first phase BFOs do not have guards even after captured and never lock. Holding BFOs generate VPs over time. A pairing specific full 6 man premade required queue for scenario is available.

 Match points earned in the scenario count towards VP. This way it isn't just win vs loss, how much you win by matters. Keeping it premade only removes the bitching at solo queue people to a minimum.

At the end of the first phase, the VP totals for each side determine the benefits for the next phase. The first phase lasts 90 minutes  (up for a change of course).

During the second phase, keeps open up to being attacked and BFOs spawn their guards.

Based on how many VPS your side earned, your keep gets a rank. The higher the rank, the harder is to take. Like more door health. More siege platforms (for when they implement them of course). Keep lord has more health and damage. Non keep lord npcs should be removed altogether to help reduce some issues people and the server have.

The lower your VPs were at the end of phase one, the higher rank your BFOs are. This is to provide a balancing to the losing side. Higher rank BFOs have more health and damage guards. During phase two, BFOs are now locked after capture similar to current system. A rank 0 BFO would lock for 5 min and each higher rank adds more time.

Owning a BFO slowly lowers the rank of the enemy keep that was earned in phase one. There is no way to increase rank of keep during phase two. BFO ranks even out as keep levels even out. This helps protect against people trying to manipulate VPs in phase one.

Phase two has a maximum time limit of twice as long as phase one (180minutes). Phase two ends whenever a keep is taken or the time runs out.

To combat cross realming, zone ticks are handed out individually. Every action taken, player kills, (contested) objective capture, scenario participation, and objective defense grants you points towards a total. This total is then modified by if it was a win, lose or draw. Overall values for each individual action should be reduced, since in this system you are rewarded when the zone is finished, even if you lose. Also add loot rolls for successful keep defense for both sides in case of draw.

Phase three only happens if phase two ends by a keep capture. The zone is locked for however much time phase two had left. At the end of lock, next zone in pairing is opened up. With the above rules, one pairing will always be in phase one, while the other two are in phase two or locked.

It is nearly always better to give people things as an incentive to play while outnumbered than it is to punish people for being a zerg. As such, I disagree with anti-aao mechanic.

-----

The benefits of this proposal are outlined below.

Phase one allows for smaller groups to affect the outcome of zone control. While the bigger groups are fighting in a phase two area, smaller groups can be queuing scs or skirmishing over BFOs for VPs. The lack of NPCs helps this.

Making the scenario s premade only allows for random people to still play scenarios without backlash since the pug scenarios don't affect anything.

Phase two is more aimed at people who enjoy larger scale fights. BFO guards spawn to put that minimum group size requirement to take them.


Earning a ton of VPs in phase one provides good bonuses to keep defense against zerg in phase two. Forces the zerg to take and hold BFOs to delevel your keep. Allowing more time to gather people for defense or disrupt BFOs.

Flipside losing phase one doesn't mean a loss as long as you have numbers seeing that your BFOs are stronger allowing you to delevel opponents keep.

Losing phase one AND being severely outnumbered will still lead to zone loss.

[StaH84]

Hi!

I've just encountered this topic and I'm a huge fan for what satori wrote.

Removing whole NPC BS is great. Less chance of bugged Keep Lord running away or Fortress hardcore upper stairs defence.

Positive / negative AAO - great.
BO hold - great. Suggestion: There should alwys be one BO to fight for. Bigger side need to hold 4 BOs, underdog 1. And respectively 3-2 when smaller advantage and 3-3 when equal.

I thought about one zone open and I'm little against it. All zones should be opened because if Inf/Ren/Exp will be gained only from players, there will be no sense in fighting the empty zones. People will search each other to fight.

Victory tick suggestion - based on the points gained during the fight in open RvR lakes. Just multuple all points player gained x0.5 or x1 while in lake and give it to him. It will make people less camp, more fight.

Winning scenarios connected to the zone would give bonuses. For example BO lock for 5mins, bigger damage for the ram, more HP for doors for defending keep etc.

Just my thoughts:)

[Tiggo]

Keep taking needs to get more tactical. that whole "we funnel you then you funnel us" thing gets tiring and boring very fast.

Easiest to implement (before we get destructible wall and ramps for walls etc. ^^) could be to modify postern door rules.

1. instead of a 10s buff, give certain classes permament ability to enter postern doors
2. classes should be mdps, one tank and perhaps one healer class (how about AM give them some meaning?

that way attackers could coordinate postern door raids and thus lighten the whole funnel thing on main doors.

[Tesq]

i think that the poster is so easy to funnel cos is the first door, is the very reason why the inners is door is not long enough, you suppose to came up with something having all the time during and after outer gone down.

i would like to see a wall claim system to force ppl to split a bit and allow defender to claim wall/surround enemys to force em to fight inside keep on different fronts.

exemple--> 2 flag on outer door around outer mini keep above door

attackers can be fought by walls on 2 sides, on earth floor by 2 sides, from inner , from behind, that give you a tons of option to divert the enemy attention and try to wipe em away with nice coordination, it also split the aoe.

the postern is there to only 1 reason to allow ppl to enter, this is a game ppl are not always in keep like a real army it's alredy high enough that some classes can ninja and stealth kill some ppl decreasing opposition inside.