Shield Warrior Priest underperformance even with BiS gear

[kpihuss]

Hello, again a post about the WP Shields spec underperformance even with BiS gear

I have been testing Shield Warrior Priest this weekend in scenarios, with the intention of checking whether the specialization can actually perform when played with a very optimized setup.

I am not talking about a test with mediocre gear or an improvised build. The character is using a very strong setup:

• 49.4% base block, plus an additional 10% from ability.
• Around 900 Strength, plus 146 additional Strength from ability.
• BiS gear: 5 pieces of Offensive Sovereign + 3 pieces of Victorious.
• 3 event block rings with talismans, giving +15% block in total.
• 10k HP plus WP Wounds buff
• 1% of incoming critical rate.

In other words, this is close to an ideal situation for Shield WP to work. If the specialization still does not produce convincing results with this level of gear, I do not think the issue is gear or basic optimization. I think the issue is in the design or scaling of the spec itself.

I used two data sets:

• My own scenarios as Shield WP, after removing scenarios with no real activity and one line without valid healer ranking.
• Global data from all T4 scenarios played during the same period.

My personal sample is 47 valid scenarios.

The global T4 data for the period includes:

• 1,637 T4 scenarios with healers.
• 9,473 T4 healer participations.
• 23,025 T4 DPS participations.

This allows my performance to be compared not only with the healers in my own scenarios, but also with the global performance of healers and DPS in T4 during the same period.

Healing performance

My average numbers as Shield WP were:

• Average healing per scenario: 120.4k
• Average healing per minute: 11.9k/min
• Average healing to others: 83.9k
• Average healing to others per minute: 8.3k/min

The global average for T4 healers during the same period was:

• Average healing per scenario: 136.9k
• Average healing per minute: 13.9k/min
• Average healing to others: 122.3k
• Average healing to others per minute: 12.4k/min

Compared to the average T4 healer during the period, my performance was:

• Total healing: 87.9% of the average T4 healer.
• Healing per minute: 85.6% of the average T4 healer.
• Healing to others: 68.6% of the average T4 healer.
• Healing to others per minute: 67.1% of the average T4 healer.

This is important. With a practically BiS build, I am not only below the healers in my own scenarios. I am also below the global average of T4 healers during the same period, especially in useful healing to other players.

In my own scenarios, compared to the other healers in the same matches, the result is also negative:

• My average healing per minute: 11.9k
• Average healing per minute of the other healers: 15.2k
• Difference: -3.3k healing per minute

• My average total healing: 120.4k
• Average total healing of the other healers: 151.9k
• Difference: -31.5k healing per scenario

In 31 out of 47 scenarios, I was below the average healing per minute of the other healers.

In healer rankings, the result is also poor:

• Top 1 in total healing: 4 out of 47 scenarios, 8.5%.

Protection performance

Total protection may look good if viewed in isolation:

• My average total protection: 43.3k
• Global average total protection of T4 healers: 29.4k
• Result: 147.5% of the global average

But this number is misleading if self-protection is not separated from protection applied to teammates.

My separated protection numbers are:

• Average self-protection: 34.7k
• Average protection to others: 8.6k
• Average protection received: 49.6k

The global average for T4 healers was:

• Average self-protection: 10.6k
• Average protection to others: 18.8k
• Average protection received: 11.1k

Compared to the average T4 healer during the period:

• Self-protection: 327.0% of the global average.
• Protection to others: 46.0% of the global average.
• Protection received: 446.1% of the global average.

This is one of the central problems. Shield WP total protection looks high, but around 80% of that protection is self-protection, mostly coming from AoE detaunts or from the block/parry increase ability. Only around 20% is protection applied to other players.

Therefore, Shield WP may look better than it really is if total protection is the only metric being considered. But when useful group protection is analyzed, the result is quite poor.

In my own scenarios, compared to the other healers in the same matches:

• My average protection to others: 8.6k
• Average protection to others of the other healers: 18.1k
• Difference: -9.5k

In fact, in 38 out of 47 scenarios, I was below the average of the other healers in protection applied to other players.

Protection received is also extremely high:

• My average protection received: 49.6k
• Global average protection received of T4 healers: 11.1k
• Average protection received of healers in my scenarios: 10.4k

This means that Shield WP receives around 4.5 times more protection than the average T4 healer.

Therefore, not only does it provide less healing and less useful protection to others, but it also needs many more defensive resources from the group in order to stay in the frontline.

In practice, this has a very clear consequence in pug scenarios. Many tanks are forced to guard me instead of guarding the DPS in my party. That makes it harder for the DPS to do their job properly, because they cannot reliably have guard available.

This is especially problematic because many pug compositions have only 1 tank per party, 4-5 DPS and 1-2 healers. In that context, having the tank almost permanently tied to the Shield WP is counterproductive for the team.

One of the supposed strengths of Shield WP should be its autonomy and its ability to act as a frontline healer/support. However, the data shows the opposite: a large part of its defensive value stays on itself, it protects the group poorly, and it also requires much more external protection than other healers.

Survivability

The survivability result is also not especially good:

• My average deaths: 1.55
• Global average deaths of T4 healers: 0.94
• Average deaths of healers in my own scenarios: 0.98

Compared to the average T4 healer, I die roughly 66% more.

So even with almost 60% effective block, 3500 armor, BiS gear and very strong event items/talismans, I still die significantly more than the average healer.

Offensive comparison using kill damage

Regarding offensive comparison:

• My average kill damage: 8.1k
• Average kill damage of T4 healers: 0.84k
• Average kill damage of T4 DPS: 24.6k

Against other healers, I obviously deal much more kill damage. My kill damage is around 9.6 times higher than the average T4 healer. But that is not the relevant comparison. The relevant comparison should be against DPS, because the usual argument in favor of Shield WP is that it compensates its healing loss by adding damage.

Against DPS, the result is quite low:

• My average kill damage: 8.1k
• Average kill damage of T4 DPS: 24.6k
• Result: 32.9% of an average T4 DPS

• My kill damage per minute: 0.77k/min
• Kill damage per minute of T4 DPS: 2.52k/min
• Result: 30.5% of an average T4 DPS

• My average deathblows: 0.62
• Average deathblows of T4 DPS: 2.37
• Result: 26.1% of an average T4 DPS

So the tradeoff does not look good. I am not trading “slightly less healer” for “half a DPS”. I am losing a significant amount of healer/support performance and, in exchange, I am bringing roughly one third of the kill damage of an average DPS, or even less if looking at deathblows.

The additional kill damage exists, but it does not seem enough to compensate for:

• Less total healing.
• Much less useful healing to others.
• Much less protection to teammates.
• More deaths.
• Much more protection received.
• Frequent consumption of guard that would usually be more useful on DPS.

Winrate comparison

I also compared winrate.

In my 47 valid scenarios:

• Wins: 23
• Losses: 24
• Winrate: 48.9%

In all T4 scenarios during the period where Order was present and I was not present:

• Order wins: 793
• Order T4 scenarios without me: 1,634
• Order winrate without me: 48.5%

The difference is practically nonexistent: 48.9% versus 48.5%.

This means that my scenarios do not seem to be especially biased by an abnormally bad Order winrate. Order won practically the same with me as without me during the period. Therefore, these numbers cannot simply be explained by saying that I was playing much worse matches than average.

At the same time, there is also no sign that a BiS Shield WP build brings any noticeable winrate improvement. With the level of investment the spec requires, I would expect it to provide at least a clear advantage as frontline support. The data does not show that.

Gear and set comparison

I also think it is important to evaluate this from a gear perspective.

I am using a BiS or practically BiS setup for this spec, with Offensive Sovereign, Victorious, special event rings, special talismans, and a massive investment into block and Strength.

However, my performance is not comparable to a BiS healer.

My character is currently using:

• Offensive Sovereign x5
• Victorious x3
• Block rings (+5% each) x3
• Healing per minute: 11.8k/min
• Healing to others per minute: 8.2k/min
• Average protection: 41.1k
• Average protection to others: 8.1k
• Average protection received: 47.1k
• Average deaths: 1.56
• Winrate: 50.0%

Compared to other level 40 healers during the period with at least 5 scenarios and detected gear, my healing per minute is around the 35th percentile. In other words, around 65% of comparable healers heal more per minute.

In healing to others per minute, the result is even worse: around the 22nd percentile. In other words, around 78% of comparable healers provide more useful healing to other players.

This is especially relevant because I am not playing with an entry-level set. I am using an endgame, very specific, heavily optimized setup for this spec.

If we group other healers by detected sets, the comparison looks like this. The groups are not exclusive, because the same player can wear pieces from several sets, but they are useful to observe general performance trends.

Code: Select all

| Detected set group | Healers | Heal/min | Heal to others/min | Protection | Prot. to others | Prot. received | Avg deaths |
| ------------------ | ------- | -------- | ------------------ | ---------- | --------------- | -------------- | ---------- |
| Sovereign Main     | 255     | 16.0k    | 14.5k              | 31.6k      | 21.0k           | 11.4k          | 0.72       |
| Triumphant         | 164     | 16.1k    | 14.6k              | 32.7k      | 22.4k           | 11.3k          | 0.63       |
| Warlord            | 22      | 14.3k    | 12.7k              | 41.0k      | 26.8k           | 14.1k          | 0.98       |
| Vanquisher         | 80      | 12.9k    | 11.5k              | 30.6k      | 20.5k           | 9.6k           | 1.26       |
| Sentinel           | 80      | 13.4k    | 11.9k              | 25.0k      | 16.6k           | 12.5k          | 1.21       |
| Conqueror          | 32      | 11.0k    | 9.5k               | 26.2k      | 15.4k           | 9.4k           | 1.60       |
| Sovereign Off      | 21      | 12.1k    | 10.2k              | 32.6k      | 19.5k           | 19.1k          | 1.31       |
| Victorious         | 33      | 13.4k    | 11.5k              | 35.7k      | 22.1k           | 16.8k          | 0.98       |
| My BiS Shield WP   | 1       | 11.8k    | 8.2k               | 41.1k      | 8.1k            | 47.1k          | 1.56       |
| 

| | | | | | | |

These numbers do not mean that gear alone explains all performance. Class, build, group, player skill and match context all matter. But the trend is worrying.

In healing per minute, my Shield WP with Offensive Sovereign + Victorious is closer to Conqueror-level values than to Sovereign Main, Triumphant or even Vanquisher/Sentinel values.

In healing to others per minute, which is one of the most important metrics for a healer/support, the situation is even worse. My value is 8.2k/min, below even the Conqueror average of 9.5k/min.

In average total protection, the number looks high: 41.1k. But again, this is misleading, because it does not translate into group protection.

My average protection to others is only 8.1k, while every compared set group is much higher:

• Sovereign Main: 21.0k
• Triumphant: 22.4k
• Warlord: 26.8k
• Vanquisher: 20.5k
• Sentinel: 16.6k
• Conqueror: 15.4k
• Sovereign Off: 19.5k
• Victorious: 22.1k

So even compared to clearly lower set groups, my actual protection to teammates is far lower.

Protection received is probably the most problematic number in this table.

• My average protection received: 47.1k
• Sovereign Main: 11.4k
• Triumphant: 11.3k
• Warlord: 14.1k
• Vanquisher: 9.6k
• Sentinel: 12.5k
• Conqueror: 9.4k
• Sovereign Off: 19.1k
• Victorious: 16.8k

This indicates that Shield WP needs much more external protection than other healers in order to stay operational. In a real composition, this means it consumes defensive resources that could go to DPS or to more valuable targets.

In average deaths, my value also looks closer to lower sets than to higher ones:

• My Shield WP: 1.56 deaths per scenario
• Conqueror: 1.60
• Vanquisher: 1.26
• Sentinel: 1.21
• Sovereign Main: 0.72
• Triumphant: 0.63
• Victorious: 0.98

Therefore, from an effective performance perspective, my BiS Shield WP build does not behave like a BiS healer build. In healing, it looks closer to low/mid-range values. In healing to others, it is even worse. In protection to teammates, it is far below every compared group. And in protection received, it is extremely higher than all of them.

That is the main scaling problem. The spec requires a massive investment, but the effective performance does not correspond to that investment.

Conclusion

The problem is not that Shield WP does not heal like a backline healer. That would be normal. The problem is that the tradeoff does not seem fair.

Shield WP:

• Has to play in melee.
• Has less safety than a backline healer.
• Depends on staying constantly in melee. There is no easy retreat option.
• Requires a huge gear investment.
• Requires high block, high Strength and defensive stats.
• Can barely invest into healing crit or melee crit.
• Loses a lot of useful group healing.
• Protects teammates less than other healers.
• Receives much more external protection than other healers.
• Can force the tank to guard the WP instead of the DPS.
• Dies more than other healers.
• And its additional kill damage remains far from real DPS performance.

With these numbers, the specialization looks more like a defensive hybrid that requires many resources to survive than a true frontline healer/support.

If a build with almost 60% effective block, around 900 Strength, BiS gear, special event items and special talismans still produces:

• Less healing than other healers.
• Much less useful healing to others.
• Less protection to teammates.
• More deaths.
• Almost 4.5 times more protection received.
• Only around one third of the kill damage of a DPS.
• Healing performance similar to much lower set levels.
• Protection to teammates below even lower set groups.
• And a winrate practically identical to the Order average without me.

Then the issue does not seem to be lack of gear or lack of investment.

The issue seems structural.

Possible areas to review

I think at least these points should be reviewed:

• Adjust the ratio between damage done and healing generated, so that each hit provides more real healing.
• Reduce the weight of casted healing in the total performance of the spec and increase the real weight of lifetaps, so healing debuffs do not affect survivability so heavily.
• Increase the number of enemies hit by Sigmar’s Will to 2-3, or reduce its RF cost to 40-50. Another possible option would be increasing its healing radius to 25 feet, like Martyr's Blessing, and limiting the number of healed targets to 12-18, obviously with a significant RF cost reduction.
• Divine Strike should heal 6 allies near the defensive target, not only provide a single-target heal.
• Divine Assault should have a larger healing multiplier for shield builds. Its healing is so low, and it also consumes RF, that it is simply not used.
• Review whether the spec should require so much external protection to function as a frontline healer.
• Review the opportunity cost of consuming guard in pug compositions.

I am not asking for Shield WP to heal like a pure backline healer. But if its role is supposed to be frontline healer/support, it should bring more real value to the group.

The numbers show that it does not heal enough, does not bring meaningful damage, and does not survive well enough, making it a burden for the side that has it in the team.

Right now, even in an almost ideal gear situation, most of the defensive value stays on the WP itself and not on its teammates. As a general rule, it heals less than other healers, although it can heal a lot in specific moments with Sigmar's Will, protects the group less, dies more, needs much more external protection, and the additional kill damage does not compensate for that loss of support performance.

And that makes the specialization not worth it.

[Nameless]

Most classes got 1 reliable build working good, some got 2, wp/dok want 3.
Frankly shield on dok/wp should not be ingame cos it break mastery trees logic.

But since we got that devs put themselves into the trap to balance it. Which is quite hard you build monster that break small scale or meme spce for the lols that noone play. I prefer the second.

Wp and doks got 2 quite strong builds already if u want something funky try 4dp + 4 triumph and shield salvation healing

[juhalanz]

Most classes got 1 reliable build working good, some got 2, wp/dok want 3.
Frankly shield on dok/wp should not be ingame cos it break mastery trees logic.

But since we got that devs put themselves into the trap to balance it. Which is quite hard you build monster that break small scale or meme spce for the lols that noone play. I prefer the second.

Wp and doks got 2 quite strong builds already if u want something funky try 4dp + 4 triumph and shield salvation healing

Could u expand a bit more the concept please? seems fun.

[Omegus]

My thoughts, based on just what you originally posted.

Beating the opponent's healing threshold

The question when it comes to comparing pure heal builds vs lifetap builds is: is the extra damage you inflict able to offset the reduced healing output?

Comparing total damage and healing output is a poor way of trying to answer that question. Kills are obtained by being able to reduce the opponent's hitpoints quicker than the opponent's hitpoints can be restored. If you can't do this then the opponent doesn't die.

If - for example - the opponent had 8k hitpoints and was taking 1.8k damage per second (this is final damage after mitigation), but was also receiving 2k healing per second. That opponent will not die as the damage they are receiving does not beat the 2k healing threshold. If you're not beating the 2k healing then you might as well be doing no damage at all. The fight could go on forever with both sides having massive amounts of healing and damage output but no actual kill damage.

Next, let's change the example slightly and include more damage as one of the people attacking is a shield WP who is doing another 500 dps after mitigation. Your team is now doing 2.3k dps and have beaten the opponent's healing threshold by 300 dps and it takes approximately 27 seconds to kill the opponent.

Final example: your team is now in better gear and are doing 10% more DPS which comes to 2530 dps. Even though this is only an increase of 10%, the damage over the healing threshold has increased by 76% (from 300 to 530). That opponent with 8k HP is now dying in 15 seconds rather than 27 seconds. Even though the DPS only went up by 10%, the time to kill decreased by 45%.

Because of this, fights will be shorter which means overall healing output will be lower.

This is also why comparing damage with DPS players is silly - you are in the scenario alongside DPS players, not replacing them. Your damage output is in addition to theirs with the aim of significantly skewing the time to kill in your team's favour. Doing a third of the damage is fine if that third is what pushes the TTK dramatically in your favour.

Surviving on the front line

The general rule of thumb is to attack healers to win the game. As a shield WP, you are a front-line healer so you are presenting yourself to be attacked. Based on this, of course your self-mitigation is going to be sky-high as the enemy likely sees you as very important target to kill. Criticising the amount of self-mitigation a shield WP has seems ridiculous when the entire point of that self-mitigation is to handle being a very tempting target. Said tempting target is also going be the focus of your team's protection as well.

The question to ask is: is the protection received by the shield WP happening to the detriment to the other team members, or are you getting that protection because you are being focused and your team is doing the right thing by keeping you alive?

To be honest, rather than asking if the shield WP is bad for having high incoming protection, I would be questioning whether the opponents are bad for focusing the shield WP so much. Yes, it's a tempting target but it gets its worth by skewing the damage numbers to beat the opposing healing threshold. If the enemy went for killing your DPS or backline healers instead then they would cut out a much bigger chunk of the overall DPS or HPS compared to killing you. Or better yet, just punt you away.

W/L ratios

This has got to be one of the only times I've seen someone provide empirical evidence to show that playing the spec caused no noticeable difference between your own win/loss rates and the global win loss rate, and use that as an argument that the spec and gear is underperforming. The output numbers on the scoreboard might be different, but by your own results the spec does fine when it comes to win/loss which is the stat that matters the most.

There is probably a very good case to be made that trying to play the spec in anything less than BIS is a disaster (sadly this has always been the case for melee healers), but BIS looks fine to me.

The part that irked me the most was:

At the same time, there is also no sign that a BiS Shield WP build brings any noticeable winrate improvement. With the level of investment the spec requires, I would expect it to provide at least a clear advantage as frontline support. The data does not show that.

It's a different spec to play, but that does not mean it should have a much higher winrate compared to backline healer. The fact that pure healer and melee healer win rates are pretty much identical should be something to celebrate.

[Anderlin]

Just remove shield spec. It's ridiculous that WP/DoK are the only classes in the game without access to a dps Sov set. I want my 15% crit damage and 6% crit chance as I'm swinging my hammer. And if they want to keep shield spec, then create a dps sov set and give it whatever pre-exisitng skin if that is what is holding it back.

[gersy]

meanwhile at higher skill level of gameplay and in certain contents like city siege or GvG (which seldom exists anymore i know) shield WP (and dok) is actually considered quite powerful and sometimes even outright soft-banned from events due to this power

but this has really always been issue with shield i guess. it ranges anywhere from "good" to "extremely overpowered" in the hands of highly competent and organized players in instanced smallscale content but then sucks in almost all the other content of the game compared to a traditional ranged healer

because of how shield works from a mechanical perspective (requiring being in melee range to heal effectively, requiring guard swaps, being vulnerable to punts that act as a form of "silence" as they remove you from melee range, etc) i don't think that a true largescale solution can ever be achieved without simultaneously breaking the game for 6v6/12v12/city like what happened in the past with these builds

[Demonito]

I prefer to max melee crit chance over block
Also your chance to be crit may go more under 0%
What's your talent tree ?
RoR.builders - Warrior Priest
That's the best 3 tactics imo ; last one either United Prayer/ Charged Fury / Fueled Fury

That said, I agree the class is really hard to play (as solo pug) and less useful in pvp than book/chalice
2 ideas for new buff :
-Add a charge (or speed proc tactic/bonus gear) for shield spec
-Divine Fury loses its malus if shield

[Hazmy]

I've tried to help and assist you in incorporating Shield Warrior Priests in your warbands but you repeatedly frankly ignore advice, so it's pointless to seriously argue, so here it is :

It's a skill issue and knowledge issue and most of your data here is based on low performing groups /warbands and gameplay that is nowhere near good for Shield Warrior Priest to shine or to make the conclusions you are trying to paint for months now.

You have a Healer healing the whole warband for more than a regular healer can, while having the defences of a tank.

The spec itself is borderline overpowered and if I could choose I would have 2 Shield Priests in all of my Warbands with Guards on them because their healing output is so insane.

[Kyouaku]

Just remove shield spec. It's ridiculous that WP/DoK are the only classes in the game without access to a dps Sov set. I want my 15% crit damage and 6% crit chance as I'm swinging my hammer. And if they want to keep shield spec, then create a dps sov set and give it whatever pre-exisitng skin if that is what is holding it back.

Exactly, and we dont have a good tri proc either, and DPS DoK lost all it's good ****, no melee AOE heal, no curse of khaine debuff on hit, no spirirt damage nuke that heals, just to get hand me down mura stuff so we are a murader but far more ****.

What do does a DPS DoK do vrs ranged in SCs? A Mura can pull, charge, and is more tanky. A WE can setalth or leap. A DPS DoK just waddles in and dies unless your own team carries you or they suck and let you waddle into them