Discuss around The Lost Vale and worse Annulus Rings

[Sepplainer]

The way annulus rings are implemented as a time gated event BiS glass cannon accessory is unhealthy for the game and makes newer players put off. Farming gold to buy the ring isn't a good gameplay loop, and time gated events that give BiS lead to fomo which can lead to burn out.

I believe the new slightly worse annulus rings gotten from The Lost Vale are a really good idea to fix the time limited issue. However I believe this still leads to the idea that BiS PvP requires only PvE like with the Blood Lord weapons.

I would like to have a discussion specifically on the topic of the new slightly worse annulus rings from The Lost Vale having some kind of PvP quest upgrade that does not change the stats, but allows you to have that specific Jewel work as a +1 to one of the three Dark Promise set effects. You would choose which dark promise set effects it would work with. The upgrade would possibly locking the Jewel to accessory Slot 2 or MAYBE slot 3 to prevent power creep.

I don't like the idea of annulus being BiS, but don't agree with nerfing it. I like the idea of the slightly worse annulus being BiS when combined with parts of a Dark Promise set. This would allow for more unique gear set ups, while making PvE and PvP required to get cool stuff.

The PvP quests should be less "Kill 200 Orcs." But something more of "win land of the dead" or "Win an elve fort Defence/Attack" maybe even "defend X bo in saphery for 10 minutes." Requiring you to stay on a battle objective for 10 minutes without leaving it King of the Hill style to gain a buff that triggers the quest complete, like how waiting 3 minutes on a bo currently gives you the bo exp boost.

I would love as much feed back and critisim as possible on this post.

[Nameless]

I got 6 rr80+ healers got 3-4 of these rings and frankly they stay at bank. After the tali slot is gone they are not so much better (if any) than 2 piece genesis that you got at lvl 36. So this panic about hidden time limited bis gear is abit over rated imo

[Sepplainer]

I got 6 rr80+ healers got 3-4 of these rings and frankly they stay at bank. After the tali slot is gone they are not so much better (if any) than 2 piece genesis that you got at lvl 36. So this panic about hidden time limited bis gear is abit over rated imo

I did say glass cannon BiS. They're much better for DPS than Healers. Maybe an emerald annulus and gun bad diamond instead of 2 piece genesis is better, but I can't confirm fully on healer as my healer is only 68. However on my 1 80+ DPS, and multiple 70+ DPS I've played, the annulus rings are very nice to have.

They're still considered BiS on DPS classes, while being an event accessory with limited access based on market price or a free schedule during the event. I'm not trying to feed into panic on the limited availability gear, instead I'm trying to make the item less appealing to prevent unhealthy fomo, while also playing into the idea of getting a new "BiS" accessory by being proactive long term with the game.

[leftayparxoun]

The way annulus rings are implemented as a time gated event BiS glass cannon accessory is unhealthy for the game and makes newer players put off. Farming gold to buy the ring isn't a good gameplay loop, and time gated events that give BiS lead to fomo which can lead to burn out.

100% agreed. Time-gated events that give BIS items are a very bad design for the game's itemization. Especially when the event happens mid-summer for just a few weeks.

I believe the new slightly worse annulus rings gotten from The Lost Vale are a really good idea to fix the time limited issue. However I believe this still leads to the idea that BiS PvP requires only PvE like with the Blood Lord weapons.

I would say that providing a way to get the rings (or close alternatives) throughout the year is a very good thing. Providing a way to only get alternatives for some of the rings (no plat/iron) is a bad decision imo, and the stat loss shown on the announcement post would still be enough to justify grinding the Twillight's Tide event if you want to actually have BIS rings, and not near-BIS.
I also dislike the fact that BIS gear from PvP partially comes from PvE. This always was the case to some extent with the worst offenders being Bloodlord weapons, Sentinel set (with its jewelry) and BB/Crypts Weapons, and to me it seems like this trend is going to unfortunately continue.

I would like to have a discussion specifically on the topic of the new slightly worse annulus rings from The Lost Vale having some kind of PvP quest upgrade that does not change the stats, but allows you to have that specific Jewel work as a +1 to one of the three Dark Promise set effects. You would choose which dark promise set effects it would work with. The upgrade would possibly locking the Jewel to accessory Slot 2 or MAYBE slot 3 to prevent power creep.

Disregarding the technical aspect of this idea (which I do think is unfeasible due to the set pieces window needing to display all 100+ ring variants), this would be a bad idea in my opinion. Here's why:

• You would still need to acquire the base Vale Ring via PvE: Nothing would change before the upgrade and if I have to guess, these LV Rings won't be exactly abundant. You might need to do a lot of LV runs just to get one. So if those LV rings had a PvP upgrade that made them BIS, then it would change nothing regarding the PvE process to acquire their base.
  In the end, it's not PvE people who complain about having to do PvE. It's PvP people. They complain because they have to do PvE in a PvP-centric game both to progress optimally with their gear and to also acquire PvP BIS in some cases. And to those people, having to do some extra PvP work to upgrade the LV rings would be trivial to accomplice. So what would happen is now instead of being able to farm/buy their Annulus rings to get BIS, they would instead have to do Lost Vale because the LV Rings and the materials to craft them currently seem to be Bind on Pickup.

• Adding a Ring to Lost Vale sets would only increase powercreep: The sets on the killboard, while not final, already paint a good picture about the set's powerlevel. Some of the tentative sets are in my opinion BIS for some classes if they were to release in such a state. The main thing holding back the majority of them from also being BIS is the lack of Ring/Pocket item as part of the set. The reason for that is that, in high-end gear, the 4pc and 5pc bonuses are usually the most powerful ones before 7/8pc, meaning that combining a 5pc set and a 4pc set is a very often BIS. And that is only possible when both of those sets have rings.
  Giving a ring to Darkpromise gear could very well lead to each class having BIS with a mix of it. The stats on the ring don't matter if I'm being honest. Even if the ring had 0 stats and just +1 to set bonuses, then I'm sure it would still end up leading to powercreep.

I don't like the idea of annulus being BiS, but don't agree with nerfing it. I like the idea of the slightly worse annulus being BiS when combined with parts of a Dark Promise set. This would allow for more unique gear set ups, while making PvE and PvP required to get cool stuff.

Trust me I don't like it either, and clearly nerfing them is not a good solution too.
In an ideal scenario, we would have the rings craftable all year long with mats dropping only from RvR (e.g. from City kills or maybe kills in Forts), but without the talisman slots. Then Twillight's Tide could still be relevant as a way to farm Rings in a bulk, which would also have a temporary advantage compared to year-round rings via their extra talisman slot.

Introducing more PvE grind to powercreep the Rings is not a good solution in my opinion. Especially if it would also mean powercreeping current PvP sets.

[Mandodlenn]

In an ideal scenario, we would have the rings craftable all year long with mats dropping only from RvR (e.g. from City kills or maybe kills in Forts), but without the talisman slots. Then Twillight's Tide could still be relevant as a way to farm Rings in a bulk, which would also have a temporary advantage compared to year-round rings via their extra talisman slot.

+1
To mend the rift caused by Twilight Tide time gated rings, restricted to summer time and/or gold farmers.

[BluIzLucky]

I got 6 rr80+ healers got 3-4 of these rings and frankly they stay at bank. After the tali slot is gone they are not so much better (if any) than 2 piece genesis that you got at lvl 36. So this panic about hidden time limited bis gear is abit over rated imo

Yep, people are losing their mind over what is (outside the 30 days with talis slot) in most cases a downgrade or at best like a 0.1% boost over alternatives.

And since they can be sold anytime on AH it's not even time gated lol...

If anything, it's a good thing, since it means new players gets a massive gold boost from established players.

[Mandodlenn]

Yep, people are losing their mind over what is (outside the 30 days with talis slot) in most cases a downgrade or at best like a 0.1% boost over alternatives.

100% of RR80+ DPS characters on Leaderboards (= most play time) have 2 Annulus rings. Fact.

[Sinisterror]

There should be actually good items dropping in PvP and Goldbags truely need actual set items back. Purple bags need to have Good Wpns with procs. You Know actual PvP Gear.

Darkpromise sets seem to have some things right but they are still 50% Copy paste/same bonuses we already get even when they have 3 sets. Pls when you do this copy paste set bonus thing, then give Boost VI to DPS HEALERS as well as Tanks. Darkpromise on live was great because 3pc bonus was 5% Crit for some. You dont have to use the same thing on every set, yes you can have and we should have Proc bonuses on 3pc bonus + 5pc bonus on same set. Dont all have to be 6-7pc or 4pc bonus..

https://killboard.returnofreckoning.com/item/421029 This set bonuses are probably best i found BUT pls no 15% AA haste on set bonus, put 10% on Gear piece
https://killboard.returnofreckoning.com/item/437707
https://killboard.returnofreckoning.com/item/421065
https://killboard.returnofreckoning.com/item/437533 Wpn skill for SM really?
https://killboard.returnofreckoning.com/item/437596 4pc Absorb is nice, but 310 armour as 5pc bonus?? come on
https://killboard.returnofreckoning.com/item/437514
https://killboard.returnofreckoning.com/item/437532
https://killboard.returnofreckoning.com/item/437657
https://killboard.returnofreckoning.com/item/437669
https://killboard.returnofreckoning.com/item/437764
https://killboard.returnofreckoning.com/item/437752
https://killboard.returnofreckoning.com/item/421114 Very bad wpn procs;( Just search Blissfull/Twisted Darkpromise or just darkpromise

[Sepplainer]

I would say that providing a way to get the rings (or close alternatives) throughout the year is a very good thing. Providing a way to only get alternatives for some of the rings (no plat/iron) is a bad decision imo, and the stat loss shown on the announcement post would still be enough to justify grinding the Twillight's Tide event if you want to actually have BIS rings, and not near-BIS.
I also dislike the fact that BIS gear from PvP partially comes from PvE. This always was the case to some extent with the worst offenders being Bloodlord weapons, Sentinel set (with its jewelry) and BB/Crypts Weapons, and to me it seems like this trend is going to unfortunately continue.

I agree with it being a bad decision to limit the rings and not give plat or iron. I believe Sentinel Jewel would flow easier for new players to get if they reduced the PvE amount and added in PvP quests along with it. I also believe Bloodlord weapon should require something other than 2 runs of Bastion to get. That's off topic, but does lead into my philosophy of making sure PvE and PvP are intertwined in some way. Since PvE is a part of the game, and I don't believe isolating it in it's current state is healthy for new player experience and even older player.

Disregarding the technical aspect of this idea (which I do think is unfeasible due to the set pieces window needing to display all 100+ ring variants), this would be a bad idea in my opinion. Here's why:

• You would still need to acquire the base Vale Ring via PvE: Nothing would change before the upgrade and if I have to guess, these LV Rings won't be exactly abundant. You might need to do a lot of LV runs just to get one. So if those LV rings had a PvP upgrade that made them BIS, then it would change nothing regarding the PvE process to acquire their base.
  In the end, it's not PvE people who complain about having to do PvE. It's PvP people. They complain because they have to do PvE in a PvP-centric game both to progress optimally with their gear and to also acquire PvP BIS in some cases. And to those people, having to do some extra PvP work to upgrade the LV rings would be trivial to accomplice. So what would happen is now instead of being able to farm/buy their Annulus rings to get BIS, they would instead have to do Lost Vale because the LV Rings and the materials to craft them currently seem to be Bind on Pickup.

• Adding a Ring to Lost Vale sets would only increase powercreep: The sets on the killboard, while not final, already paint a good picture about the set's powerlevel. Some of the tentative sets are in my opinion BIS for some classes if they were to release in such a state. The main thing holding back the majority of them from also being BIS is the lack of Ring/Pocket item as part of the set. The reason for that is that, in high-end gear, the 4pc and 5pc bonuses are usually the most powerful ones before 7/8pc, meaning that combining a 5pc set and a 4pc set is a very often BIS. And that is only possible when both of those sets have rings.
  Giving a ring to Darkpromise gear could very well lead to each class having BIS with a mix of it. The stats on the ring don't matter if I'm being honest. Even if the ring had 0 stats and just +1 to set bonuses, then I'm sure it would still end up leading to powercreep.

Technical aspect is something I did not think of. Thanks for bringing logistics into this, I can't currently think of a way to fix that part. Maybe make it show the ring itself and not the prefixes of the ring on the set effect screen. IDK how well that would work on the back end.
Regarding the first point, I believe PvE is fine to start the steps of acquiring BiS gear as long as it's interactive PvE and leads to you engaging in the meat of the game which is PvP. Doing a dungeon like Lost Vale to get a rare drop beats running gunbad in a speed group once a day, selling all the gear and hoarding gold until I get 5k for the over priced Iron Ruby Annulus on market. A splash of PvE in a PvP-centric game is needed to keep a healthy player base in my opinion, even if it's unpopular. It's also more player investing to see a Gunbad Diamond drop and use it on your healer, then it is to farm 2k gold and buy the Gunbad Diamond.
On the second point of power creep, I believe having it take over BiS in SOME builds in some situations is fine since it adds variety to what different classes want to do. The perfect world would make Dark Promise gear a side grade and I believe making the ring a +1 would help that idea. I very much think stat adjustments are needed on the current Killboard version of the items though.

Trust me I don't like it either, and clearly nerfing them is not a good solution too.
In an ideal scenario, we would have the rings craftable all year long with mats dropping only from RvR (e.g. from City kills or maybe kills in Forts), but without the talisman slots. Then Twillight's Tide could still be relevant as a way to farm Rings in a bulk, which would also have a temporary advantage compared to year-round rings via their extra talisman slot.[/code]

Craftable rings with mats dropping from RvR in City or Fort only would encourage the idea of never logging to a character unless it's City or Fort time which was a toxic byproduct of the Sov Crest grind. I believe it's a better system then what we have now though.

Just finished a 13 hour shift so I'm a bit tired. Sorry if anything seems to repeat or ramble on! Thanks for the reply and critique though!

[Sepplainer]

There should be actually good items dropping in PvP and Goldbags truely need actual set items back. Purple bags need to have Good Wpns with procs. You Know actual PvP Gear.

Darkpromise sets seem to have some things right but they are still 50% Copy paste/same bonuses we already get even when they have 3 sets.

https://killboard.returnofreckoning.com/item/421029 This set bonuses are probably best i found BUT pls no 15% AA haste on set bonus, put 10% on Gear piece
https://killboard.returnofreckoning.com/item/437707
https://killboard.returnofreckoning.com/item/421065
https://killboard.returnofreckoning.com/item/437533 Wpn skill for SM really?
https://killboard.returnofreckoning.com/item/437596 4pc Absorb is nice, but 310 armour as 5pc bonus?? come on
https://killboard.returnofreckoning.com/item/437514
https://killboard.returnofreckoning.com/item/437532
https://killboard.returnofreckoning.com/item/437657
https://killboard.returnofreckoning.com/item/437669
https://killboard.returnofreckoning.com/item/437764
https://killboard.returnofreckoning.com/item/437752
https://killboard.returnofreckoning.com/item/421114 Very bad wpn procs;( Just search Blissfull/Twisted Darkpromise or just darkpromise

I believe devs say they don't want dark promise to be BiS, just a stepping stone to SoV. I would like some to have more unique 4 piece effects, and a slight change to how you get the armor itself. Getting broken pieces from PvE, upgrade to the set you want via PvP crests or unique drop.