Is WH part of Class balance/review?

[Panzer80]

"Less reliance on main stats"- Witchbrew scales with str now (to less dmg with capped str than before the change with 300 str, and to barely any dmg on high toughness targets), so can't skip on main stat.

He was obviously referring to stat(s) (plural) meaning no reliance on weapon skill, which is a huge advantage for magic damage compared to physical, not least when it comes to building stats with items since again one does not have to build weapon skill with item budget or tactic slots occupied for the purpose and can just rely upon str.

As for more options for elemental dmg, with physical you only have problem with armor on tanks.

Now here is the catch- anyone teamed with any of the first 4 also has the resists buff. Or- anyone who uses resist lini (+360 all resists) now has an extra 21.4% mitigation vs you, which stacks with base resists, and with toughness mitigation.

Are you aware that resistance is soft-caped at 40% ? On a bis toon the liniment is approx 11-% mitigation ( up from 30 to 41 ish %).

With elemental danage as an option the WH would have access to approx 60% penetration vs prepared targets (liniment) or 70-80% vs unprepared targets, hence it would be a better class to play which is what he was referring to since magic-> physical in this game. As there are class resistance buffs there are also class resistance debuffs to further increase effectiveness of magic ( like for example a WH attacking someone under the influence of a knight debuff aura, BW debuff etc).

In other words, with physical dmg, and with having both armor debuff and ws armor pen, you are having a fun time vs anything which isn't tank- no way to buff armor beyond the base pot, unless someone sacrifices tali slots for armor, and even then cloth wearers won't mitigate much.

Are you not aware that there are % armor reduction items in this game(fleshrender, sov items , liniment etc)? Like for example on my SM i have 18-20% armor penetration reduction on top of 5k armor, which i could increase to 23-25% using a liniment, that mean the bleeding edge tactic/blessed blade tactic are more or less nulified by these items, have fun now with a WH hitting a chosen ( which will use a similar setup to my SM) with base 400 WS and burn armor lasting a short time.

Medium armor classes ? Mara has better mitigation vs phys than even tanks if they so want and Doks are self-healing with a few talis 4k armor + % reduction items, i guess that leaves Choppas, yes WH can kill choppas and vice versa.

Cloth wearers are the only exception where physical is actually decent (but only in theory since both shamans/magus are OP roaming classes better than a wh), but even there using armor talismans, blue pot( 8xx armor) is way more meta than using the resistance liniment( which few players bother with) and the WH would not need to worry about WS or the blessed blade tactic( which is hard to get for a BAl build if it doesn't skip important abilities on the tree or use the +2 sov bonus, sacrificing important set bonus).

Although i could agree magic damage wouldn't fix WH vs these classes since they're OP anyways and he will be easily kited/detaunted/cc, generally though elemental dps would help the class perform better ( which is what i believe panzer was talking about).

From other hand, with ele dmg and without resists debuff, any in the list above, anyone teamed with them, or anyone who uses resists lini, has a 40% mitigation vs you which you can't debuff, as a baseline. But then there is the toughness mitigation on top- so vs anything with high toughness as well, expect 80%+ actual mitigation.

Good so it seems you are aware of the resistance softcap after all? Then 60% penetration( 40 res) without having to invest into any WS or a tactic high up in the opposite tree results in a more effective/versatile WH class overall, even in solo without a debuff but in groups or random roam encounters there will be debuffs further boosting magic damage levels. If WH need to rely upon physical damage they need a boost penetration, the nerf from 50->25 on blessed blade crippled the class vs anyone in the def meta that is roaming ( meaning not random playes in vanq gear).

P.S. Toughness works all the same vs physical so there is no advantage/disadvantage.

Thank you. I'm glad someone else understands the game enough.

[Zxul]

"Less reliance on main stats"- Witchbrew scales with str now (to less dmg with capped str than before the change with 300 str, and to barely any dmg on high toughness targets), so can't skip on main stat.

He was obviously referring to stat(s) (plural) meaning no reliance on weapon skill, which is a huge advantage for magic damage compared to physical, not least when it comes to building stats with items since again one does not have to build weapon skill with item budget or tactic slots occupied for the purpose and can just rely upon str.

To quote him directly- "less reliance on main stats". Since "stats" means several, I take it it means you assume there is several ws stats in the game. Great, just within my expectations of you, now let me help you. On top of forums there is a link named "Wiki", if you click on it, inside there are links explaining the basics of the game, including which stats the game includes and what do they actually do. Try it, I believe it can help you a lot.

As for more options for elemental dmg, with physical you only have problem with armor on tanks.

Now here is the catch- anyone teamed with any of the first 4 also has the resists buff. Or- anyone who uses resist lini (+360 all resists) now has an extra 21.4% mitigation vs you, which stacks with base resists, and with toughness mitigation.

Are you aware that resistance is soft-caped at 40% ? On a bis toon the liniment is approx 11-% mitigation ( up from 30 to 41 ish %).

Apparently reading is hard, but I want you to know that we like you and respect you no matter what your special handicaps might be. Specially for you, to make it easier, you can find the 40% cap down in my very same post which you quoted. Hope it helped.

With elemental danage as an option the WH would have access to approx 60% penetration vs prepared targets (liniment) or 70-80% vs unprepared targets, hence it would be a better class to play which is what he was referring to since magic-> physical in this game. As there are class resistance buffs there are also class resistance debuffs to further increase effectiveness of magic ( like for example a WH attacking someone under the influence of a knight debuff aura, BW debuff etc).

Let me correct a few small things.

1. "With elemental damage as an option the WH would have access to approx 60% penetration vs non afk targets (liniment, or self buff on 5 classes, or being teamed with 4 out of those 5 classes) or 70-80% vs afk targets,". Not including chosen or BO as well, or anyone teamed with them, since their buffs don't run out even if they go afk.
2. "magic-> physical in this game", assuming you are only hitting tanks, and not using armor debuffs + ws.
3. Now that you mention outside buffs for WH, great- time then to mention outside buffs for physical dmg as well. Like m1 armor debuff from the same kotb which stacks with WH's armor debuff, and for example ws buff from sm.
4. "BW debuff etc"- BW can't debuff ele resist, only corp.

4 things wrong in a short paragraph, pretty sure its a new record, but it is well within my expectations of you.

In other words, with physical dmg, and with having both armor debuff and ws armor pen, you are having a fun time vs anything which isn't tank- no way to buff armor beyond the base pot, unless someone sacrifices tali slots for armor, and even then cloth wearers won't mitigate much.

Are you not aware that there are % armor reduction items in this game(fleshrender, sov items , liniment etc)? Like for example on my SM i have 18-20% armor penetration reduction on top of 5k armor, which i could increase to 23-25% using a liniment, that mean the bleeding edge tactic/blessed blade tactic are more or less nulified by these items, have fun now with a WH hitting a chosen ( which will use a similar setup to my SM) with base 400 WS and burn armor lasting a short time.

I guess "you are having a fun time vs anything which isn't tank" was too complicated for you. Need to think of a way to simplify it to kindergarten level, will be back to you.

Medium armor classes ? Mara has better mitigation vs phys than even tanks if they so want and Doks are self-healing with a few talis 4k armor + % reduction items, i guess that leaves Choppas, yes WH can kill choppas and vice versa.

Mara -armor pen is tied to Monstrosity mutation- while their single target build requires Brutality/ Savagery. Not to mention, it was nerfed to -20% armor pen long ago. See, it's nice to actually learn how the game works.

As for DoKs, the only ones which actually slot armor talis are chalice healers, since dps ones actually need to do dmg somehow so they need stats. However, the fun part is that chalice healer DoKs don't roam alone, so if you run into one there is also some version of resists buff involved, so back to 40% mitigation before toughness vs nonphysical you go.

Cloth wearers are the only exception where physical is actually decent (but only in theory since both shamans/magus are OP roaming classes better than a wh), but even there using armor talismans, blue pot( 8xx armor) is way more meta than using the resistance liniment( which few players bother with) and the WH would not need to worry about WS or the blessed blade tactic( which is hard to get for a BAl build if it doesn't skip important abilities on the tree or use the +2 sov bonus, sacrificing important set bonus).

Lets simplify a few things.

1. "since all classes manned by someone other than Farrul are OP roaming classes better than any class manned by Farrul"- corrected it for you, will help you understand a few things and all.
2. Don't think I once seen a roaming shaman/ magus using armor talis, in my entire live or ror history. The defensive ones use toughness talis.
3. You do aware that even if "burning" finishers were, as Panzer80 requested, turned into elemental, wh's aa and most other abilities would still be physical, so unless the plan is to only use Torment spam + "burning" finishers, WH would still need ws, right?

Although i could agree magic damage wouldn't fix WH vs these classes since they're OP anyways and he will be easily kited/detaunted/cc, generally though elemental dps would help the class perform better ( which is what i believe panzer was talking about).

See the part 1 of my previous reply, relevant here as well.

From other hand, with ele dmg and without resists debuff, any in the list above, anyone teamed with them, or anyone who uses resists lini, has a 40% mitigation vs you which you can't debuff, as a baseline. But then there is the toughness mitigation on top- so vs anything with high toughness as well, expect 80%+ actual mitigation.

Good so it seems you are aware of the resistance softcap after all? Then 60% penetration( 40 res) without having to invest into any WS or a tactic high up in the opposite tree results in a more effective/versatile WH class overall, even in solo without a debuff but in groups or random roam encounters there will be debuffs further boosting magic damage levels. If WH need to rely upon physical damage they need a boost penetration, the nerf from 50->25 on blessed blade crippled the class vs anyone in the def meta that is roaming ( meaning not random playes in vanq gear).

Duel, your WH vs my dps zealot, I won't even use armor pot so 1 k or so armor before WH debuff? Although you are asking for elemental instead of physical, so you can search for stream by Reynor007 back when he played bw, how elemental dmg worked for him when he run into my dps zealot.

P.S. Toughness works all the same vs physical so there is no advantage/disadvantage.

Of cause. However, my dps zealot for example can't have 5 k armor + high toughness, but it very much has capped resists (with self buff) + over 800 toughness, so you might want to invest just a bit more thought into which type of dmg exactly do you actually want to deal.

[SJHarrison4115]

Yo, @Farrul and @Zxul... can y'all just kiss already?

[Zxul]

Yo, @Farrul and @Zxul... can y'all just kiss already?

Wanna join? Lets make it a group lovin.

[SJHarrison4115]

Yo, @Farrul and @Zxul... can y'all just kiss already?

Wanna join? Lets make it a group lovin.

I should've expected nothing less from someone with a Slaaneshi vibe to their signature this right here is some heresy.

[salazarn]

I hope so. Wh do not work ATM and can't even solo well.

[jafh123]

"Less reliance on main stats"- Witchbrew scales with str now (to less dmg with capped str than before the change with 300 str, and to barely any dmg on high toughness targets), so can't skip on main stat.

He was obviously referring to stat(s) (plural) meaning no reliance on weapon skill, which is a huge advantage for magic damage compared to physical, not least when it comes to building stats with items since again one does not have to build weapon skill with item budget or tactic slots occupied for the purpose and can just rely upon str.

To quote him directly- "less reliance on main stats". Since "stats" means several, I take it it means you assume there is several ws stats in the game. Great, just within my expectations of you, now let me help you. On top of forums there is a link named "Wiki", if you click on it, inside there are links explaining the basics of the game, including which stats the game includes and what do they actually do. Try it, I believe it can help you a lot.

As for more options for elemental dmg, with physical you only have problem with armor on tanks.

Now here is the catch- anyone teamed with any of the first 4 also has the resists buff. Or- anyone who uses resist lini (+360 all resists) now has an extra 21.4% mitigation vs you, which stacks with base resists, and with toughness mitigation.

Are you aware that resistance is soft-caped at 40% ? On a bis toon the liniment is approx 11-% mitigation ( up from 30 to 41 ish %).

Apparently reading is hard, but I want you to know that we like you and respect you no matter what your special handicaps might be. Specially for you, to make it easier, you can find the 40% cap down in my very same post which you quoted. Hope it helped.

With elemental danage as an option the WH would have access to approx 60% penetration vs prepared targets (liniment) or 70-80% vs unprepared targets, hence it would be a better class to play which is what he was referring to since magic-> physical in this game. As there are class resistance buffs there are also class resistance debuffs to further increase effectiveness of magic ( like for example a WH attacking someone under the influence of a knight debuff aura, BW debuff etc).

Let me correct a few small things.

1. "With elemental damage as an option the WH would have access to approx 60% penetration vs non afk targets (liniment, or self buff on 5 classes, or being teamed with 4 out of those 5 classes) or 70-80% vs afk targets,". Not including chosen or BO as well, or anyone teamed with them, since their buffs don't run out even if they go afk.
2. "magic-> physical in this game", assuming you are only hitting tanks, and not using armor debuffs + ws.
3. Now that you mention outside buffs for WH, great- time then to mention outside buffs for physical dmg as well. Like m1 armor debuff from the same kotb which stacks with WH's armor debuff, and for example ws buff from sm.
4. "BW debuff etc"- BW can't debuff ele resist, only corp.

4 things wrong in a short paragraph, pretty sure its a new record, but it is well within my expectations of you.

In other words, with physical dmg, and with having both armor debuff and ws armor pen, you are having a fun time vs anything which isn't tank- no way to buff armor beyond the base pot, unless someone sacrifices tali slots for armor, and even then cloth wearers won't mitigate much.

Are you not aware that there are % armor reduction items in this game(fleshrender, sov items , liniment etc)? Like for example on my SM i have 18-20% armor penetration reduction on top of 5k armor, which i could increase to 23-25% using a liniment, that mean the bleeding edge tactic/blessed blade tactic are more or less nulified by these items, have fun now with a WH hitting a chosen ( which will use a similar setup to my SM) with base 400 WS and burn armor lasting a short time.

I guess "you are having a fun time vs anything which isn't tank" was too complicated for you. Need to think of a way to simplify it to kindergarten level, will be back to you.

Medium armor classes ? Mara has better mitigation vs phys than even tanks if they so want and Doks are self-healing with a few talis 4k armor + % reduction items, i guess that leaves Choppas, yes WH can kill choppas and vice versa.

Mara -armor pen is tied to Monstrosity mutation- while their single target build requires Brutality/ Savagery. Not to mention, it was nerfed to -20% armor pen long ago. See, it's nice to actually learn how the game works.

As for DoKs, the only ones which actually slot armor talis are chalice healers, since dps ones actually need to do dmg somehow so they need stats. However, the fun part is that chalice healer DoKs don't roam alone, so if you run into one there is also some version of resists buff involved, so back to 40% mitigation before toughness vs nonphysical you go.

Cloth wearers are the only exception where physical is actually decent (but only in theory since both shamans/magus are OP roaming classes better than a wh), but even there using armor talismans, blue pot( 8xx armor) is way more meta than using the resistance liniment( which few players bother with) and the WH would not need to worry about WS or the blessed blade tactic( which is hard to get for a BAl build if it doesn't skip important abilities on the tree or use the +2 sov bonus, sacrificing important set bonus).

Lets simplify a few things.

1. "since all classes manned by someone other than Farrul are OP roaming classes better than any class manned by Farrul"- corrected it for you, will help you understand a few things and all.
2. Don't think I once seen a roaming shaman/ magus using armor talis, in my entire live or ror history. The defensive ones use toughness talis.
3. You do aware that even if "burning" finishers were, as Panzer80 requested, turned into elemental, wh's aa and most other abilities would still be physical, so unless the plan is to only use Torment spam + "burning" finishers, WH would still need ws, right?

Although i could agree magic damage wouldn't fix WH vs these classes since they're OP anyways and he will be easily kited/detaunted/cc, generally though elemental dps would help the class perform better ( which is what i believe panzer was talking about).

See the part 1 of my previous reply, relevant here as well.

From other hand, with ele dmg and without resists debuff, any in the list above, anyone teamed with them, or anyone who uses resists lini, has a 40% mitigation vs you which you can't debuff, as a baseline. But then there is the toughness mitigation on top- so vs anything with high toughness as well, expect 80%+ actual mitigation.

Good so it seems you are aware of the resistance softcap after all? Then 60% penetration( 40 res) without having to invest into any WS or a tactic high up in the opposite tree results in a more effective/versatile WH class overall, even in solo without a debuff but in groups or random roam encounters there will be debuffs further boosting magic damage levels. If WH need to rely upon physical damage they need a boost penetration, the nerf from 50->25 on blessed blade crippled the class vs anyone in the def meta that is roaming ( meaning not random playes in vanq gear).

Duel, your WH vs my dps zealot, I won't even use armor pot so 1 k or so armor before WH debuff? Although you are asking for elemental instead of physical, so you can search for stream by Reynor007 back when he played bw, how elemental dmg worked for him when he run into my dps zealot.

P.S. Toughness works all the same vs physical so there is no advantage/disadvantage.

Of cause. However, my dps zealot for example can't have 5 k armor + high toughness, but it very much has capped resists (with self buff) + over 800 toughness, so you might want to invest just a bit more thought into which type of dmg exactly do you actually want to deal.

Duel! duel! duel!