Change back from 9 to 24

[SZ244663]

Hello,

I'd like to expand on earlier post where I quoted the most recent patch note from 7/26/2024: "...The change from 9 to 24 was intended to make it easier to bust zergs, but to a large degree it has instead also made it more difficult for well organized warbands to face zergs. Many other things has also changed since then, so we are trying out a change back down to the original target cap of 9."

This is Iulus/Poliphomos/Grootster, a PUG warband leader. I play at times when very, very few destro even think about coming together to play together and sometimes am lucky enough to get 12 man or even 24 mans for our games. Problem is, I'm the only one out there, so we have a 24 vs 24 WB thing going on most of time -- problem is, we are not even close to being organized like the other WB (full discord, full 2/2/2, mostly BIS) versus the other PUG warband which is 1. not on discord or coordinated, 2. not even close to having 2/2/2, maybe there's one or two healers in the whole WB if you're lucky, and 3. now with the aoe target cut back down from 24 to 9, this favors smaller combat scale and if we have about 6-8 pug players who are with us, when we face a warband that is extremely organized, well geared, and communicating and moving as an entire unit...this is extremely painful to play against - we lose the main advantage we would have had, our numbers, and now they just stomp us painfully.

Not really fun anymore when we lose one of the few advantages we had...not everyone is super organized and super geared (I make it a point that in WBs I don't make it a requirement to be "RR60+" etc). Also Many people I've spoken with think the AoE changes have drastically affected their class. For example, DoKs are now very very poor healers in big fights - look at shaman (they can put HoT (no channel whatsoever, can be moving the whole time) with two nearby targets, so in the span of 4 GCDs, they can target a maximum of 12 people), whereas DoK cannot (at most they can put a small CHANNELED heal). I know at least a couple DoKs thinking of switching to shaman because of that...hope that they don't have to, and we can have the AoE swapped back to larger target range of 24 ppl.



Hoping to inspire some more discourse on this topic, I'm happy that we get the chance to discuss this, and hopefully can come to some form of agreement

[memesperg]

please leave it 9 as all that 24 does is lead to healer bloat to counter all the aoe spam RoR is not meant to be a blob aoe zerg game

[akisnaakkeli]

If any dok thinks about switching class to shaman because Khaines Refreshment which was always only good for renown and proccing things, and it will still give good renown and will proc things with 9cap instead of 24 : D Probably the worst heal ability doks and wp's get(martyrs blessing)

Respects to you for being a Pug Leader, but we need dps dok with melee grp heal and 50% aoe HD's back. Same with Strong CC and morale dmg cap starting at 4800 instead of 2400 so you could kill some with morale drops.

Imo it probably should be removed because aoe heal debuffs with no morale dmg cap is the only way to deal with the blob,but you wont kill whole warband with mnorale drop you will kill 1/3 of warband so why cap the dmg? And if one player can hit 24 instead of 9 you will always lose with a smaller WB after certain numbers because even the fluff is not fluff with 24.

Heals are designed to heal 6-9 and tanks are designed to take dmg from 9 cap not 24 ae cap. This is why 9 cap alone will not be enough, you need 50% aoe healdebuffs + Morale dmg cap removed or nerfed by alot

[Gunlinger]

There need to be some changes soon. The 9 target Cap forces aoe melee trains to spread their dmg over a wider area instead of bombing at one single point. BUT there are some Abilities that should not be capped. Abilities like challenge, Flashbang, Surge of Insanity, Strafing run, Mouth of Tzeentch and many more, should not be Aoe lottery Abilities. Manny aoe CC abilities are meant to be your last resort. And most of them are already limited by CC immunities or their limited area of impact.
And what about the dmg of most Abilities, that once got lowered(nerfed) when the cap was changed from 9 to 24?

[trh382]

please leave it 9 as all that 24 does is lead to healer bloat to counter all the aoe spam RoR is not meant to be a blob aoe zerg game

9 cap makes healers too strong and warbands too hard to wipe

Other things probably need to be readjusted to make the 9 cap viable

[Tisaya]

I'm on the fence here. From one side, 9 aoe cap does make fighting zergs harder. On the other hand, it limits zergs too, as superior numbers usually mean superior AOE.

It leads to less damage overall, which means longer, more exiting fights. 9 cap also allows ST spec/classes exist in orvr context.

[memesperg]

please leave it 9 as all that 24 does is lead to healer bloat to counter all the aoe spam RoR is not meant to be a blob aoe zerg game

9 cap makes healers too strong and warbands too hard to wipe

Other things probably need to be readjusted to make the 9 cap viable

yea that was what i was meaning by healer bloat devs had to keep buffing heals to compensate for the 24 damage hit cap & now its 9 they should hopefully tone done healers

[SZ244663]

With a smaller force to be able to deal with a larger force (eg an organized 9 man vs a PUG 24 man), it would make sense for the smaller force to be able to target or attack all of the targets at once, especially if they are trying to surprise the PUG 24 man -- otherwise they will only be able to attack 9/24 people at a time while the PUG 24 man can attack the entire 9 man, all at once, providing a clear disadvantage to the 9 man.

[SZ244663]

If any dok thinks about switching class to shaman because Khaines Refreshment which was always only good for renown and proccing things, and it will still give good renown and will proc things with 9cap instead of 24 : D Probably the worst heal ability doks and wp's get(martyrs blessing)

Respects to you for being a Pug Leader, but we need dps dok with melee grp heal and 50% aoe HD's back. Same with Strong CC and morale dmg cap starting at 4800 instead of 2400 so you could kill some with morale drops.

Imo it probably should be removed because aoe heal debuffs with no morale dmg cap is the only way to deal with the blob,but you wont kill whole warband with mnorale drop you will kill 1/3 of warband so why cap the dmg? And if one player can hit 24 instead of 9 you will always lose with a smaller WB after certain numbers because even the fluff is not fluff with 24.

Heals are designed to heal 6-9 and tanks are designed to take dmg from 9 cap not 24 ae cap. This is why 9 cap alone will not be enough, you need 50% aoe healdebuffs + Morale dmg cap removed or nerfed by alot

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Thanks, it is really painful right now leading PUG WBs with only 50% of ppl following directions for the first hour haha. But things are slowly coming together.

DoKs do have a lot of value with the refreshment from Khaine, is it as good as the 6 man group heal of course not but if you can hit 24 people, all at once, that can definitely help top up ppl before the next push in once your six man is all nice, healthy topped up and ready to fight.

Regarding the aoe heal debuffs, this can be a debate for another time. I think that aoe heal debuffs can definitely help make things more fluid or higher likelihood of a comeback for a losing team if they can position and hit properly, so this idea does have some merit and would need to be tested.

I agree that morale damage cap being removed would be helpful for the small team to be able to knock em down and wipe like you said eg. 1/3 of the opposing warband. It would be scary though because the remaining 2/3 of the warband could then counter morale and just completely obliterate the smaller 6 or 12 man for example. So that might be a reason why. But I also see your point - maybe your goal is to just get as many kills as possible, even if it means certain death for you as well (ie we will wipe 1/3 of their warband and probably also get wiped in the process because of counter morale). But I think these ideas should be discussed more!

I think we can't necessarily say that heals are "designed" to heal a "x" or "y" number of people. Some heals are single target. Some heals can target a couple of players, some are group heals, and some have out of group heals. I think DoKs got the most screwed over in the out of group heals department with this change, and I was simply adding it definitely can help to provide steady out of group valuable heals to our allies -- I've definitely seen over time it can add up and helps with healer shortages to possiby bridge the difference between having party 3 and 4 have their dps alive especially in big fight situations like fort battles before charging in and also even when regrouping/fighting in things like city. It's most certainly not the strongest heal per target the strength of that skill is in topping up so many people at once especially if your WB only has 2 or 3 healers because that is what the PUG GODS have decided to allot you for the night hahaha!!!

[Lion1986]

I believe a good spot is limit aoe cap to 12 instead of 9 for ALL dps classes. For tanks, skills like challenge, remain to 24.