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Balancing scenarios for 50% winrate even with pug vs premade.

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Structured class balance suggestions belong in the Balance Proposal subforum. Class-related discussion in this section are considered as ongoing debates and ARE NOT reviewed for balance changes.
Isidoro
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Posts: 20

Re: Balancing scenarios for 50% winrate even with pug vs premade.

Post#31 » Tue Aug 09, 2022 9:02 pm

immdev wrote: Tue Aug 09, 2022 5:46 am
Isidoro wrote: Sun Aug 07, 2022 2:00 pm There is not and will not be a balance between classes in this game. Thanks to the local "developers" who play the order. Order is stronger than destruction. If you want to win, play for a warrant.
Tell this to SW with bugged for last 2 YEARS tactic. Or to aSW, who is basically dead weight in every possible scenario, from solo to wb.
Tell this to SH with 65f and dmg 600-800
On the belt buckles of the sovereign, the lions need to knock out "Max is with us!"

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immdev
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Posts: 23

Re: Balancing scenarios for 50% winrate even with pug vs premade.

Post#32 » Wed Aug 10, 2022 6:02 am

Isidoro wrote: Tue Aug 09, 2022 9:02 pm
immdev wrote: Tue Aug 09, 2022 5:46 am
Isidoro wrote: Sun Aug 07, 2022 2:00 pm There is not and will not be a balance between classes in this game. Thanks to the local "developers" who play the order. Order is stronger than destruction. If you want to win, play for a warrant.
Tell this to SW with bugged for last 2 YEARS tactic. Or to aSW, who is basically dead weight in every possible scenario, from solo to wb.
Tell this to SH with 65f and dmg 600-800
SH > SW

Isidoro
Suspended
Posts: 20

Re: Balancing scenarios for 50% winrate even with pug vs premade.

Post#33 » Wed Aug 10, 2022 10:12 am

immdev wrote: Wed Aug 10, 2022 6:02 am
Isidoro wrote: Tue Aug 09, 2022 9:02 pm
immdev wrote: Tue Aug 09, 2022 5:46 am
Tell this to SW with bugged for last 2 YEARS tactic. Or to aSW, who is basically dead weight in every possible scenario, from solo to wb.
Tell this to SH with 65f and dmg 600-800
SH > SW
whereby? xD
On the belt buckles of the sovereign, the lions need to knock out "Max is with us!"

Garamore
Posts: 397

Re: Balancing scenarios for 50% winrate even with pug vs premade.

Post#34 » Wed Aug 10, 2022 10:26 am

immdev wrote: Tue Aug 09, 2022 5:46 am
Isidoro wrote: Sun Aug 07, 2022 2:00 pm There is not and will not be a balance between classes in this game. Thanks to the local "developers" who play the order. Order is stronger than destruction. If you want to win, play for a warrant.
Tell this to SW with bugged for last 2 YEARS tactic. Or to aSW, who is basically dead weight in every possible scenario, from solo to wb.
Sometimes you just have to park a char and play something else. I love the chosen but the mara gives so many advantages leading a wb that the chosen barely sees light of day. SW had their reign of terror with stacking broadheaded arrow and im sure at somepoint they may rise again.

No queueing system will be able to balance scens. Most are won or lost on peoples ability to assist on targets and cross heal. You cannot factor in people who don't do that into a queueing system. Likewise tanks putting guards on people makes a huge difference but is rarely seen in pug scens. Either q the solo scen, get a premade or just accept a low win rate.
Garamore - Chosen Garamar - Marauder Garachop - Choppa Garamor - Slayer

Warband leader for Hand of Blood

https://www.twitch.tv/therealgaramore

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Ninjagon
Posts: 474

Re: Balancing scenarios for 50% winrate even with pug vs premade.

Post#35 » Wed Aug 10, 2022 10:37 am

"Goal: Reach 50% win/loss rate for everyone, even for premades facing pugs."

This is nonsence with the current playerbase. Best we can hope for are the shortest SC queues possible.
Ninjab - The White Lion. No Destruction character. RETRIBUTION guild.
Also: Velmires - WP, Carnow - KotbS, Ninjagon - BW, Nynja - SW, Stin - WH, and others.
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needforsneed
Posts: 18

Re: Balancing scenarios for 50% winrate even with pug vs premade.

Post#36 » Wed Aug 10, 2022 4:53 pm

so if you are above the run of the mill tercios,bene, freeboota,etc player you should have to take mercenary geared shitters vs bis? even if you still win why should they reap the benefits?

Maltar
Posts: 27

Re: Balancing scenarios for 50% winrate even with pug vs premade.

Post#37 » Wed Aug 10, 2022 7:33 pm

Since the aim should be to prevent high winrate, and make harder and harder the further past 50% winrate you push. If your premade is pushing high 60 to 70% winrate, and another premade logs on opposing side with 60-70% winrate, the optimal happening would be that both premades are set to face each other, because of similar score.

Kills is what premades often hunt for, and pugs often need rewards, well if kill rewards are funneled into winning the sc, anyone needing rewards are motivated to push to win the sc, even if you are farming kills. So the premade has to choose what is important to them if they are endlessly farming, they still need to win to reap the benefits, and winning with most kills give double points. Pushing faster to balance out the winrate.

Pushing 70%+ should from a balance point of view be very close to the highest you can push for wins over any short period of time. Allows premade to shine, while still preserving game health over time.

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Razid1987
Posts: 1295

Re: Balancing scenarios for 50% winrate even with pug vs premade.

Post#38 » Wed Aug 10, 2022 7:55 pm

I'm going to agree with Ninjagon:
As long as the player base is as small as it is, I don't think putting limitations on the queue, is a good solution. That would just mean much, much longer queue for everyone - Not just premades. A MMR system would kill SCs, fair and square.

Also, what should and shouldn't be, should be up to the Devs, or at the very least, the majority of the community - Not to few outspoken individuals.
And balance is a bit of a subjective topic, too: As Gargis said already on page 1, this game (And indeed most games) is made with equality of oppotunity, not equality of outcome. We all began the game from level 1, with no gear, no rerown, no nothing. So, are you saying the people, who put in all the hours to learn the game, find allies, and learn team work, shouldn't be rewarded? I'm not saying I disagree, but there should at least be some kind of justification for essentially putting a penalty on people, who strive for excellence.
Last edited by Razid1987 on Thu Aug 11, 2022 7:20 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Maltar
Posts: 27

Re: Balancing scenarios for 50% winrate even with pug vs premade.

Post#39 » Wed Aug 10, 2022 10:29 pm

And that also was brought up earlier in the thread, one could just put a timer on top of it, 60 seconds maximum wait before it would allow to trigger a old style sc without accounting for numbers. In low pop situations you can't really counter it in any way. At medium or high pop then it could have it's place. You would have to have a fallback option when the numbers just isn't there.

If accounting for instant poprate, which is being very optimistic, add a 1 minute delay for trying to balance on pop. Over an hour that would account for a loss of time in sc somewhere between 4 to upperbound 8 minutes total time, and if balanced significantly less than that. A counter showing average amount of players or points queuing on each side over the last 15 minutes could also help to highlight population imbalances for queuing.

And as I have said throughout, this is a suggestion to highlight options, air ideas and fine tune possibilities. A suggestion is just that, an idea, and bringing it up, and having it discussed is how a idea propagates. If people love it, people will remember it and bring it up later, if few like it, then it will die in silence and be forgotten.
I don't expect the devs to drop everything they are doing to work on my suggestion, as no suggestion should expect.

It is just delivering an idea to them, and it is up to them and the community in general if it will be embraced or not, just as many members of the community has peeled back my original post until it became something more polished and interesting.

We all started at level 1, with no gear, no renown and we all played up where we are today. The difference is that when we did it, the game was very different, for those early on many sides of the game was faster, some were much slower, and the population and diversity of player gear and levels were very different from what they are today. Which means the solutions that worked back then naturally has to change as the playerbase has changed.

And as we have seen from the devs over the last half year or so, more and more QoL changes have been implemented to combat the imbalances and catchup mechanics. War crests, ranked gear being buyable by war crests, wards being fulfilled by pve gear or pvp gear interchangeably. The devs are very clearly changing the game to fit the new normal, to try to keep the game alive and healthy. To give hope to growing new players and maybe seeing a resurgence in the game over time.

The reason to put a slow on the most excelling players is based on the same reason why having fully geared characters stomping anyone not equal into the ground on repeat is not healthy for the game in general. So yeah, if we as premade players have to take our licks and pay the price in flesh and blood to feed those weaker than us, then that is something I would gladly do to keep the server lively and promote more growth of players that are still leveling, gearing and learning.

And if you look at my forum history, I am not a very vocal member of the forum, so the implication I am one of the few outspoken might be a little off point. As I am not a member of any of the focus groups, nor do I have any contact with anyone official of the team.

The penalty for the most organized players, to get to fight harder and more varied opponents. Do you work hard at being the best so you can spend night after night stomping pugs on repeat? That does not sound like much fun for the general playerbase, and quite boring for those who push themselves for excellence. The whole idea of a pvp game is to constantly push yourself, to improve and get better, but that only applies when the fight is at least slightly on the same level. And there is no way to magically make every player as knowledgeable as many of those are after years or even over a decade of playing the game.

If I could think of any other way that was less problematic to allow players to meet on equal grounds I would have suggested them. Instead of adding players, you could have gone the route of incremental % gear nerf for winning on repeat, and wouldn't that be much worse than facing unbalanced numbers in battle? Or a buff to stats for losing. Plenty of horrid ideas that have been spoken about in TS channels and discords over the years. I brought my suggestion as a possibility of being at least a step more balanced than those over time. Though you could implement them using the same system.

BInding rewards so deeply into winning is to limit the abuse potential but is also the part that could easily be peeled off and removed, but I am sure that even in the form discussed here, there will be some glaring way to abuse it that would pop up and need fixing within a short while.

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zulnam
Posts: 760

Re: Balancing scenarios for 50% winrate even with pug vs premade.

Post#40 » Thu Aug 11, 2022 8:41 am

How about we just add bots for players with low win rate to compete against? Give them a fighting chance.

Also, make it so that when you win 10 SCs in a row Karl Franz (or the heretic guy, forgot his name), personally walks up to you and gives you the coolest High Five. We're talking WoW cinematic levels of quality animation; maybe add some blur effects cause it's not a high five from your geography teacher. This is Karl F*ckin Franz we're talking about. Your character is star struck.

Also, please make it so that when a SC pops, "Disco Inferno" starts playing in the background until you join. And no matter what sound options chosen, it blasts at full volume. Even if your PC audio is set to mute. Even if it doesn't have an audio system. Please send Dalen over with a boombox under my window to blast it. At which point I will, pop my head out and let him know when I'm in the SC.

I know this is a bit much. Everyone is volunteer status, after all. So if Dalen is busy, SIoding or Lilim will suffice.
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Last edited by zulnam on Thu Aug 11, 2022 4:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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