Recent Topics

Ads

The problem with stealth classes

We want to hear your thoughts and ideas.
Forum rules
Before posting on this forum, be sure to read the Terms of Use

Structured class balance suggestions belong in the Balance Proposal subforum. Class-related discussion in this section are considered as ongoing debates and ARE NOT reviewed for balance changes.
User avatar
Valarion
Posts: 390

Re: The problem with stealth classes

Post#51 » Sun May 15, 2022 6:30 am

They just need to remove the in-combat stealth mechanic again and make it so dots have a 100% chance of breaking stealth if placed upon them before they stealth. Problem solved.

In-combat stealth has been a terrible mechanic since it was implemented and I cant help but remember what was said long ago: "In-combat stealth rewards bad players playing badly" Torquemada
Image
80+ WP/Dok/RP/Zealot 60+ AM/Shaman/Knight/Chosen/SM/BO/BW/Sorc 40+WL/Eng. SW deleted

Ads
Sulorie
Posts: 7219

Re: The problem with stealth classes

Post#52 » Sun May 15, 2022 9:39 am

Valarion wrote: Sun May 15, 2022 6:30 am They just need to remove the in-combat stealth mechanic again and make it so dots have a 100% chance of breaking stealth if placed upon them before they stealth. Problem solved.

Rephrase it to "just remove stealth completely" if you want dots to remove stealth.
Dying is no option.

Arla
Posts: 40

Re: The problem with stealth classes

Post#53 » Tue May 24, 2022 2:18 am

wildwindblows wrote: Mon May 02, 2022 7:37 am
Panzer80 wrote: Sun May 01, 2022 10:38 pm Been playing game for 2 years now, have a WH (not endgame yet), fought WE/WH many times. The problem with these classes is they are over done atm. Stealth classes should exist on a knife edge. Like the ninja, get in, time it right, get out. Problem is that much of the risk is taken away from these classes by abilities/tactics that make up for the inherent fragility of the class with absorbs, one button 100% parry, double stealth, hop back, hop ins, etc, which just turn these classes into tanks in small game situations. Again the point should be, time it right, un-stealth, kill, get out. Screw up and you loose. Not hang around unfearful of the 8-10 enemies about, because you can just absorb/parry/jump/stealth away again, which is what we see.

One suggestion I can think of is changing stealth to become much less effective when closer to more enemies, or change the effectiveness of the lesser stealth. Another being to change tank creep abilities and tactics like absorbs, and 100% parry to passive damage instead of passive defenses.

You can't make the argument that stealth classes exist on a knife edge atm, it's just not true, as ALL classes exist on a knife edge to a solid degree if they're roaming around solo in the lakes. That's just how it is. We already see stealth classes huddling around 6-12 mans in the lakes as is, changes of the type I'm suggesting would just make the solo roaming riskier. Stealth classes already get the high rr rewards.
WH have 12sec 100% parry (morale 1+ skill), one skill provides aoe morale drain+kd, x2 stealth (one of them is insta), kd, kb. aoe armor debuff...It is best solo class atm and opponent has no chance to win against. People are saying that wh only playable solo/small scale because proper wb build does not exist. IMO, currently wh is easy win and they are ruining the game. There are also other solo hardcore players whom player other classes. This is unfair.
I have played dozens of MMOs over a long period of time. WE/WH are the all time overtuned class as they stand right now, based on my experience. These classes completely ruin the game for many players and if they, both the classes as they are cureently configured, and the players who play them were deleted from the server entirely I think you'd be surprised by how many other players would be very happy about that and the server would likely see bigger numbers. Imagine being new and your first experience with one of these classes? If a patch came out tomorrow removing them I for one would be very happy. (Someone died in a PVP zone/git gud/yadda yadda) WE/WH balance, or lack thereof is the 900 pound gorilla in the room, let us at least be honest about it.

Sulorie
Posts: 7219

Re: The problem with stealth classes

Post#54 » Tue May 24, 2022 6:13 am

You have problems with them despite being in a group or warband?
Dying is no option.

Alucard2010
Posts: 91

Re: The problem with stealth classes

Post#55 » Tue May 24, 2022 6:32 am

Arla wrote: Tue May 24, 2022 2:18 am
wildwindblows wrote: Mon May 02, 2022 7:37 am
Panzer80 wrote: Sun May 01, 2022 10:38 pm Been playing game for 2 years now, have a WH (not endgame yet), fought WE/WH many times. The problem with these classes is they are over done atm. Stealth classes should exist on a knife edge. Like the ninja, get in, time it right, get out. Problem is that much of the risk is taken away from these classes by abilities/tactics that make up for the inherent fragility of the class with absorbs, one button 100% parry, double stealth, hop back, hop ins, etc, which just turn these classes into tanks in small game situations. Again the point should be, time it right, un-stealth, kill, get out. Screw up and you loose. Not hang around unfearful of the 8-10 enemies about, because you can just absorb/parry/jump/stealth away again, which is what we see.

One suggestion I can think of is changing stealth to become much less effective when closer to more enemies, or change the effectiveness of the lesser stealth. Another being to change tank creep abilities and tactics like absorbs, and 100% parry to passive damage instead of passive defenses.

You can't make the argument that stealth classes exist on a knife edge atm, it's just not true, as ALL classes exist on a knife edge to a solid degree if they're roaming around solo in the lakes. That's just how it is. We already see stealth classes huddling around 6-12 mans in the lakes as is, changes of the type I'm suggesting would just make the solo roaming riskier. Stealth classes already get the high rr rewards.
WH have 12sec 100% parry (morale 1+ skill), one skill provides aoe morale drain+kd, x2 stealth (one of them is insta), kd, kb. aoe armor debuff...It is best solo class atm and opponent has no chance to win against. People are saying that wh only playable solo/small scale because proper wb build does not exist. IMO, currently wh is easy win and they are ruining the game. There are also other solo hardcore players whom player other classes. This is unfair.
I have played dozens of MMOs over a long period of time. WE/WH are the all time overtuned class as they stand right now, based on my experience. These classes completely ruin the game for many players and if they, both the classes as they are cureently configured, and the players who play them were deleted from the server entirely I think you'd be surprised by how many other players would be very happy about that and the server would likely see bigger numbers. Imagine being new and your first experience with one of these classes? If a patch came out tomorrow removing them I for one would be very happy. (Someone died in a PVP zone/git gud/yadda yadda) WE/WH balance, or lack thereof is the 900 pound gorilla in the room, let us at least be honest about it.
Salty.

User avatar
Detangler
Posts: 986

Re: The problem with stealth classes

Post#56 » Tue May 24, 2022 4:12 pm

Arla wrote: Tue May 24, 2022 2:18 am
wildwindblows wrote: Mon May 02, 2022 7:37 am
Panzer80 wrote: Sun May 01, 2022 10:38 pm Been playing game for 2 years now, have a WH (not endgame yet), fought WE/WH many times. The problem with these classes is they are over done atm. Stealth classes should exist on a knife edge. Like the ninja, get in, time it right, get out. Problem is that much of the risk is taken away from these classes by abilities/tactics that make up for the inherent fragility of the class with absorbs, one button 100% parry, double stealth, hop back, hop ins, etc, which just turn these classes into tanks in small game situations. Again the point should be, time it right, un-stealth, kill, get out. Screw up and you loose. Not hang around unfearful of the 8-10 enemies about, because you can just absorb/parry/jump/stealth away again, which is what we see.

One suggestion I can think of is changing stealth to become much less effective when closer to more enemies, or change the effectiveness of the lesser stealth. Another being to change tank creep abilities and tactics like absorbs, and 100% parry to passive damage instead of passive defenses.

You can't make the argument that stealth classes exist on a knife edge atm, it's just not true, as ALL classes exist on a knife edge to a solid degree if they're roaming around solo in the lakes. That's just how it is. We already see stealth classes huddling around 6-12 mans in the lakes as is, changes of the type I'm suggesting would just make the solo roaming riskier. Stealth classes already get the high rr rewards.
WH have 12sec 100% parry (morale 1+ skill), one skill provides aoe morale drain+kd, x2 stealth (one of them is insta), kd, kb. aoe armor debuff...It is best solo class atm and opponent has no chance to win against. People are saying that wh only playable solo/small scale because proper wb build does not exist. IMO, currently wh is easy win and they are ruining the game. There are also other solo hardcore players whom player other classes. This is unfair.
I have played dozens of MMOs over a long period of time. WE/WH are the all time overtuned class as they stand right now, based on my experience. These classes completely ruin the game for many players and if they, both the classes as they are cureently configured, and the players who play them were deleted from the server entirely I think you'd be surprised by how many other players would be very happy about that and the server would likely see bigger numbers. Imagine being new and your first experience with one of these classes? If a patch came out tomorrow removing them I for one would be very happy. (Someone died in a PVP zone/git gud/yadda yadda) WE/WH balance, or lack thereof is the 900 pound gorilla in the room, let us at least be honest about it.
Apparently you didn't play DAoC pre Trials of Atlantis and pre-realm point ability overhauls. Infiltrators had permanent mega stealth with no counters, did the most damage after the Left Axe nerf of Midgard, and were the only ones with Vanish of all 3 realms, lol. The class was a god that just picked off targets at will (perforate artery + 7 second stun creeping death) and safely avoided fights with no danger to their own well being.
Detangler and alts - 84 Chosen, other 40s - DoK, Zealot, SH, WE, BG, BO
Destro - Mostly Harmless
Tangler and alts - 8X IB, other 40s - RP, SM
Order - Most dishonorable

Arla
Posts: 40

Re: The problem with stealth classes

Post#57 » Tue May 24, 2022 4:29 pm

Detangler wrote: Tue May 24, 2022 4:12 pm
Arla wrote: Tue May 24, 2022 2:18 am
wildwindblows wrote: Mon May 02, 2022 7:37 am

WH have 12sec 100% parry (morale 1+ skill), one skill provides aoe morale drain+kd, x2 stealth (one of them is insta), kd, kb. aoe armor debuff...It is best solo class atm and opponent has no chance to win against. People are saying that wh only playable solo/small scale because proper wb build does not exist. IMO, currently wh is easy win and they are ruining the game. There are also other solo hardcore players whom player other classes. This is unfair.
I have played dozens of MMOs over a long period of time. WE/WH are the all time overtuned class as they stand right now, based on my experience. These classes completely ruin the game for many players and if they, both the classes as they are cureently configured, and the players who play them were deleted from the server entirely I think you'd be surprised by how many other players would be very happy about that and the server would likely see bigger numbers. Imagine being new and your first experience with one of these classes? If a patch came out tomorrow removing them I for one would be very happy. (Someone died in a PVP zone/git gud/yadda yadda) WE/WH balance, or lack thereof is the 900 pound gorilla in the room, let us at least be honest about it.
Apparently you didn't play DAoC pre Trials of Atlantis and pre-realm point ability overhauls. Infiltrators had permanent mega stealth with no counters, did the most damage after the Left Axe nerf of Midgard, and were the only ones with Vanish of all 3 realms, lol. The class was a god that just picked off targets at will (perforate artery + 7 second stun creeping death) and safely avoided fights with no danger to their own well being.
I played DAoC extensively. Why are we trying to replicate that experience here? At least in DAoC you had tools to make it a fight. Here there is no purge, IP, charge, or any other number of abilities that might give someone a shot for the win. Why did stealth in this iteration of WAR become Perma stealth when it was meant to be a short term gap closer as the original design? DAoC stealth is exactly what the design decisions here have brought to my mind. I am pretty sure that half of the population of DAoC is currently stealth classes. WAR is creeping in that direction.

User avatar
Detangler
Posts: 986

Re: The problem with stealth classes

Post#58 » Tue May 24, 2022 4:41 pm

Arla wrote: Tue May 24, 2022 4:29 pm
Detangler wrote: Tue May 24, 2022 4:12 pm
Arla wrote: Tue May 24, 2022 2:18 am

I have played dozens of MMOs over a long period of time. WE/WH are the all time overtuned class as they stand right now, based on my experience. These classes completely ruin the game for many players and if they, both the classes as they are cureently configured, and the players who play them were deleted from the server entirely I think you'd be surprised by how many other players would be very happy about that and the server would likely see bigger numbers. Imagine being new and your first experience with one of these classes? If a patch came out tomorrow removing them I for one would be very happy. (Someone died in a PVP zone/git gud/yadda yadda) WE/WH balance, or lack thereof is the 900 pound gorilla in the room, let us at least be honest about it.
Apparently you didn't play DAoC pre Trials of Atlantis and pre-realm point ability overhauls. Infiltrators had permanent mega stealth with no counters, did the most damage after the Left Axe nerf of Midgard, and were the only ones with Vanish of all 3 realms, lol. The class was a god that just picked off targets at will (perforate artery + 7 second stun creeping death) and safely avoided fights with no danger to their own well being.
I played DAoC extensively. Why are we trying to replicate that experience here? At least in DAoC you had tools to make it a fight. Here there is no purge, IP, charge, or any other number of abilities that might give someone a shot for the win. Why did stealth in this iteration of WAR become Perma stealth when it was meant to be a short term gap closer as the original design? DAoC stealth is exactly what the design decisions here have brought to my mind. I am pretty sure that half of the population of DAoC is currently stealth classes. WAR is creeping in that direction.
Stealth here used to be a 30 second max duration. I don't know why it was changed, and it should be reverted. We don't need solo stealth classes waiting and picking and choosing targets to gank lowbies and classes that can't fight back.
Detangler and alts - 84 Chosen, other 40s - DoK, Zealot, SH, WE, BG, BO
Destro - Mostly Harmless
Tangler and alts - 8X IB, other 40s - RP, SM
Order - Most dishonorable

Ads
User avatar
tvbrowntown
Suspended
Posts: 272

Re: The problem with stealth classes

Post#59 » Tue May 24, 2022 4:43 pm

Wards like League of Legends. Nailed it.

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: nAyu and 31 guests