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Cyrinael wrote: ↑Wed Jan 12, 2022 3:56 pm
Call me an elitist PoS, but learning to execute and improve your skill can be extremely rewarding and removing NB forced many people to learn 2 play their characters again, thus becoming better players.
its nice to talk when u dont have 3 debuffs and 5 buffs to cast at same time
im glad someone classes have time to PoS or hit their 2 buttons when im have only 3 toolbars filled with skills which im need to use and almost all have different timer (cannot be used even in sequencer) and even no timer (so i need to spent my time for timer tick on enemy) or depend from my grudges (its already third or forth eye which looking on CM)
dont touch what work and give ability to play other
NB save my time, attention and fingers from hard work in rvr, dont know why it angry all quasi-pro
may be they enjoy theirs hack tools like dark NB or sniff and inject packets?
P.S. all these trashtalks about cheating via NB can go to deep hole since NB use API like all other addons
The underlying issue is the game has 50 skills that should all just be one skill. As was the style for the time it was made. they wanted to make it "interesting" but they just made it complex for the sake of complexity. that is why every class has only one tree that has any value, and it's mostly just 2 skills in it that are useful. This game would be so much better if the developers turned 80% of all active skills into passive effects that modified core mechanics. Identify 10 core skills per class and then make everything else modify those skills in a strategic way.
Well, yes and no. The low numbers for 3 and 4 disproves your claim that it "did not serve the interest of the players". Either they didnt see a connection between NB removal and population decline, maybe they didnt see a population decline at all or they think that a loss of some population to remove NB was still worth it.
Its highly questionable how respresentative this poll is, but if you can take anything from it, then the split between 2,3 and 4.
My point is that there has been a series of unpopular changes, the dev team knows the changes were unpopular, and they continued course hoping that those changes were a vocal minority speaking out.
When you're dealing with thousands instead of hundreds of thousands of vocal players, you can assume that any substantial volume of noise will result in a loss of players of some sorts. As developers, if you consistently do not bend to the whims of the players in a project in where you are performing a free service for them to preserve a game for them and entertain them, you are doing a disservice to everyone except your internal team of developers who want to see their ideas come to life.
Even if it's not a single event, consistently unpopular changes that affect a different small subset of players will increase the volume of dissatisfied players. As population dwindles, so do the volume of players that disagree with your methods of making decisions.
It then begs the question who you are making said changes for - the 'game's integrity', or the players?
Eu peak is around 1k now (912 atm as I'm writing this).
I believe you when you say it doesn't bypass GCD, but NB is a low level bot, semi-automated gameplay.....not good.
More than enough changes took skill out of the game (buffing mara pull 4 times for one)
NB is an addon. It was within the restrictions of Mythic's server. Buffing a class or nerfing a class has more of an impact on the possibility than NB does.
You're comparing apples to oranges. Class changes are not the same as removing NB. IMO - class nerfs hurt the game more than anything else. Buffing classes to be like the strongest class in the game is always the better approach compared to nerfing them to be like the weaker ones.
I didn't realize this a few years back. Everyone was in a frenzy of, "Nerf this, nerf that." in most major games.
What I found out in my day job (which is game programming, not design, but I interacted with designers) is that nerfing classes result in less players as players feel like they are weaker and stop playing because you 'ruined their favorite toy' - even if it benefits the rest of the game, losing those players means that those players become vocal, and thus, may encourage others to quit which results in a retention drop.
Since there's no monetary value to players here, the only reason you have to make changes is to make the players' lives more enjoyable. Doing anything contrary to that would result in a drop of players.
There are a few exceptions for exceptionally egregious cases - but in RoR's expansive history, there hasn't been any egregious cases of imbalance without a developer first introducing a nerf to another class.
It's a self-made issue.
I will post one example to close out the argument:
Spoiler:
Rampage. It's class defining for Slayers.
It's also one of the most frequently discussed balance subjects at high end, yet has no tangible metrics to warrant its change.
A majority of DPS lack a critical defining skill like Rampage. A proper solution is to not nerf rampage (or any other perceived imbalance) but evaluate whether or not a class has a class-defining skill like that:
Shadow Warrior/SH does not. Closest thing they have is spirit bypass in Scout/Big Shootin', which isn't as good as Slayer.
White Lion had Coordinated Strike (DoTs after CS was nerfed)
Bright Wizard/Sorc has a short, low mitigation burst window.
Mara has nothing like that.
WE/WH have armor bypass and high armor pen, alongside spell immunity, WE with WL's core ability, etc...
Choppa has the ability to grant people immunities. They're high AOE damage, but not nearly as Slayer with ID among other abilities.
Tanks have no mitigation ability to rival that bypass.
Healers have no mitigation / healing to rival that bypass beyond absorbs, which are just a core gameplay mechanic.
Engineer/Magus, while they have potentially high burst, do not have the level of movement slayer has.
DPS AM/WP/DoK/Shaman do not rival that with any ability.
Out of these, only WE/WH/BW/Sorc have anything to rival that mitigation / defense bypass.
Cyrinael wrote: ↑Wed Jan 12, 2022 3:56 pm
Call me an elitist PoS, but learning to execute and improve your skill can be extremely rewarding and removing NB forced many people to learn 2 play their characters again, thus becoming better players.
its nice to talk when u dont have 3 debuffs and 5 buffs to cast at same time
im glad someone classes have time to PoS or hit their 2 buttons when im have only 3 toolbars filled with skills which im need to use and almost all have different timer (cannot be used even in sequencer) and even no timer (so i need to spent my time for timer tick on enemy) or depend from my grudges (its already third or forth eye which looking on CM)
dont touch what work and give ability to play other
NB save my time, attention and fingers from hard work in rvr, dont know why it angry all quasi-pro
may be they enjoy theirs hack tools like dark NB or sniff and inject packets?
P.S. all these trashtalks about cheating via NB can go to deep hole since NB use API like all other addons
Hey I get it, you play IB. The most complicated class to play in RoR. Seriously, I know it since my live-main was IB with over 5000 hours. But honestly, are you really telling me you are not able to just press buttons without external tooling? Hell, humanity flew to the moon and achieved much more since then and you are really telling yourself that you are not able to execute skill rotations (remember there is a GCD inbetween)? You are vastly underestimating your own potential.
This is a game, there will be errors in your execution. Most of the fun in this game comes from everyone not playing perfectly. We all have accidently punted a target away and saved it from dying. Just accept that you will make mistakes, improve your gameplay through it and just don't rely on NB.
Secrets wrote: ↑Wed Jan 12, 2022 7:32 pm
Buffing classes to be like the strongest class in the game is always the better approach compared to nerfing them to be like the weaker ones.
So true! Look how popular MSH was, and instead of learning from it and buffing other classes to be more like it, they nerfed it to the ground. Then put a parking lot on top (rsh buffs)
I so wish they'd give other mdps more mobility tools like MSH had, it was hella fun to play and made the game so much more enjoyable for me with a combination of AoE, ST burst and CC/mobility. It was very self-reliant which was a breath of fresh air and suited me perfectly, since generally in this game DPS needs babysitters.
You know what hardcountered this class though? Freaking Dragonguns wielded by WH's who knew what they were doing. I haven't really played my MSH since they nerfed it, it only made me bitter over what they've done. And I think a lot of people feel this way since you never see MSH anymore.
Sorry this is a derail and a half but I felt like saying it
My point is that there has been a series of unpopular changes, the dev team knows the changes were unpopular, and they continued course hoping that those changes were a vocal minority speaking out.
When you're dealing with thousands instead of hundreds of thousands of vocal players, you can assume that any substantial volume of noise will result in a loss of players of some sorts. As developers, if you consistently do not bend to the whims of the players in a project in where you are performing a free service for them to preserve a game for them and entertain them, you are doing a disservice to everyone except your internal team of developers who want to see their ideas come to life.
Even if it's not a single event, consistently unpopular changes that affect a different small subset of players will increase the volume of dissatisfied players. As population dwindles, so do the volume of players that disagree with your methods of making decisions.
It then begs the question who you are making said changes for - the 'game's integrity', or the players?
Eu peak is around 1k now (912 atm as I'm writing this).
I believe you when you say it doesn't bypass GCD, but NB is a low level bot, semi-automated gameplay.....not good.
More than enough changes took skill out of the game (buffing mara pull 4 times for one)
NB is an addon. It was within the restrictions of Mythic's server. Buffing a class or nerfing a class has more of an impact on the possibility than NB does.
You're comparing apples to oranges. Class changes are not the same as removing NB. IMO - class nerfs hurt the game more than anything else. Buffing classes to be like the strongest class in the game is always the better approach compared to nerfing them to be like the weaker ones.
I didn't realize this a few years back. Everyone was in a frenzy of, "Nerf this, nerf that." in most major games.
What I found out in my day job (which is game programming, not design, but I interacted with designers) is that nerfing classes result in less players as players feel like they are weaker and stop playing because you 'ruined their favorite toy' - even if it benefits the rest of the game, losing those players means that those players become vocal, and thus, may encourage others to quit which results in a retention drop.
Since there's no monetary value to players here, the only reason you have to make changes is to make the players' lives more enjoyable. Doing anything contrary to that would result in a drop of players.
There are a few exceptions for exceptionally egregious cases - but in RoR's expansive history, there hasn't been any egregious cases of imbalance without a developer first introducing a nerf to another class.
It's a self-made issue.
I will post one example to close out the argument:
Spoiler:
Rampage. It's class defining for Slayers.
It's also one of the most frequently discussed balance subjects at high end, yet has no tangible metrics to warrant its change.
A majority of DPS lack a critical defining skill like Rampage. A proper solution is to not nerf rampage (or any other perceived imbalance) but evaluate whether or not a class has a class-defining skill like that:
Shadow Warrior/SH does not. Closest thing they have is spirit bypass in Scout/Big Shootin', which isn't as good as Slayer.
White Lion had Coordinated Strike (DoTs after CS was nerfed)
Bright Wizard/Sorc has a short, low mitigation burst window.
Mara has nothing like that.
WE/WH have armor bypass and high armor pen, alongside spell immunity, WE with WL's core ability, etc...
Choppa has the ability to grant people immunities. They're high AOE damage, but not nearly as Slayer with ID among other abilities.
Tanks have no mitigation ability to rival that bypass.
Healers have no mitigation / healing to rival that bypass beyond absorbs, which are just a core gameplay mechanic.
Engineer/Magus, while they have potentially high burst, do not have the level of movement slayer has.
DPS AM/WP/DoK/Shaman do not rival that with any ability.
Out of these, only WE/WH/BW/Sorc have anything to rival that mitigation / defense bypass.
Well, what you describe is short term gains for long term issues. And thats nothing specific to game development, but basic human psychology.
It would be far easier to balance the game, if the classes are mirrored or more classes had access to some basic abilities like regeneration/selfhealing. But that would be against the core of the game. I think the class diversity is one of the appealing things of warhammer online and should be kept, even if it makes balancing harder.
And your "buff all, nerf nothing" approach would be terrible, as it is virtually impossible to bring all classes on the same lvl with how diverse they are. So if you buff one class, it will maybe a bit stronger than the other classes. Now you have to buff other classes to be on the same lvl as the first one. You will likely miss the mark again, so there will be need for another buff, and another... a spiral of buffs that end in a total clown show.
Granted, you are not really specific with your theory, so there might be some truth in it. Your spoiler is also of no help. Why compare rampage to a BW/Sorc rotation that consists of a number of abilities and is actually quite easy to counter? Isn´t the furious/berserk status also class defining for slayer (or probably even more). Sorry, i dont get it.
In general the class balance is imo on a good way for the last year or so. There are probably countless of issues, but I see a general improvement. If the devs want to keep the class diversity (and I hope they do), balancing will never be finished, but might be slowly improved due to finetuning of specific classes with buffs and nerfs.
Arbich wrote: ↑Wed Jan 12, 2022 8:26 pm
It would be far easier to balance the game, if the classes are mirrored or more classes had access to some basic abilities like regeneration/selfhealing. But that would be against the core of the game.
Actually most classes have this self heal or regen. It's mostly terrible, balance suggestions to buff these tactics / abilities have been made but mostly discarded afaik.
I think it would be great if more classes had viable tools for self-preservation as it makes ganking a solo player playing a suboptimal solo class more difficult and it makes engagements last longer. All kinds of good things result from that. I love those fights where it starts with just a couple of guys and it evolves into a big skirmish. Too bad they end pretty fast before that point most of the time.
Who knows, maybe buffing regen, selfheal and defensive builds in general could make pug cities more interesting as you aren't completely effed by a lack of healers or tanks. Could possibly even counter the ultra offensive bomb meta among the organized warbands somewhat, who knows.
1. Potions: use at 5% / 15% / 25% health - sounds like automated addon decision. Player can see their HP bar and use pot accordingly.
2. Abilities that require being behind the target = conditional checks which were the cause of NB controversy in the first place.
3. only dots stack so just set up skill-dot-skill-dot-dot-skill sequence and carry on... Unless said addon is supposed to read timers/stack number for a player and slot dot skill when it's available to use? If yes, then we're back to conditional checks which were the cause of NB controversy in the first place
2. " backstub" is available for activation only when the target is from behind, it turns out that the game automatically decides whether the character can use the skill or not?) the game playing for the players already in the root class mechanics? if we go this way then we can come the conclusion that the game itself already has a certain automatism of actions, when the program does actions for the players.
3.every dot has its own validity time, why not add a check condition to reactivate at a specific time? any simplest combination can be of the form: dot, skill with cooldown, constant skill without CD.
I like how you try to muddy the waters and turn it around but it doesn't change the fact that running in circles around target and hitting one button to either attack from best flanking position, keep a 3xstack of dots constantly on target and shatter/sever/interrupt what enemy throws at you the moment they do it is too much.
I could go on but it's just repeating what already have been said at this point. IF this was pve game then by all means, sequence all the way, reduce human error to one digit percentage - mobs don't care. But it's pvp and players have strong opinions about loosing to a bot.
EOT
you just need to give a clear definition of what it means when they say that the addon (program) plays for the player. my opinion is that you can talk about this when the addon itself chooses which skill to use from several possible ones depending on certain conditions, if you simply set a certain sequence of skills, even if the activation of some of them requires checking certain conditions (dot duration), then this is not automation of the gameplay, but is an optimization of a poorly organized interface.
15th orks on a dead elf's chest
yo ho ho and a bottle of rum
My point is that there has been a series of unpopular changes, the dev team knows the changes were unpopular, and they continued course hoping that those changes were a vocal minority speaking out.
When you're dealing with thousands instead of hundreds of thousands of vocal players, you can assume that any substantial volume of noise will result in a loss of players of some sorts. As developers, if you consistently do not bend to the whims of the players in a project in where you are performing a free service for them to preserve a game for them and entertain them, you are doing a disservice to everyone except your internal team of developers who want to see their ideas come to life.
Even if it's not a single event, consistently unpopular changes that affect a different small subset of players will increase the volume of dissatisfied players. As population dwindles, so do the volume of players that disagree with your methods of making decisions.
It then begs the question who you are making said changes for - the 'game's integrity', or the players?
Eu peak is around 1k now (912 atm as I'm writing this).
I believe you when you say it doesn't bypass GCD, but NB is a low level bot, semi-automated gameplay.....not good.
More than enough changes took skill out of the game (buffing mara pull 4 times for one)
NB is an addon. It was within the restrictions of Mythic's server. Buffing a class or nerfing a class has more of an impact on the possibility than NB does.
You're comparing apples to oranges. Class changes are not the same as removing NB. IMO - class nerfs hurt the game more than anything else. Buffing classes to be like the strongest class in the game is always the better approach compared to nerfing them to be like the weaker ones.
I didn't realize this a few years back. Everyone was in a frenzy of, "Nerf this, nerf that." in most major games.
What I found out in my day job (which is game programming, not design, but I interacted with designers) is that nerfing classes result in less players as players feel like they are weaker and stop playing because you 'ruined their favorite toy' - even if it benefits the rest of the game, losing those players means that those players become vocal, and thus, may encourage others to quit which results in a retention drop.
Since there's no monetary value to players here, the only reason you have to make changes is to make the players' lives more enjoyable. Doing anything contrary to that would result in a drop of players.
There are a few exceptions for exceptionally egregious cases - but in RoR's expansive history, there hasn't been any egregious cases of imbalance without a developer first introducing a nerf to another class.
It's a self-made issue.
I will post one example to close out the argument:
Spoiler:
Rampage. It's class defining for Slayers.
It's also one of the most frequently discussed balance subjects at high end, yet has no tangible metrics to warrant its change.
A majority of DPS lack a critical defining skill like Rampage. A proper solution is to not nerf rampage (or any other perceived imbalance) but evaluate whether or not a class has a class-defining skill like that:
Shadow Warrior/SH does not. Closest thing they have is spirit bypass in Scout/Big Shootin', which isn't as good as Slayer.
White Lion had Coordinated Strike (DoTs after CS was nerfed)
Bright Wizard/Sorc has a short, low mitigation burst window.
Mara has nothing like that.
WE/WH have armor bypass and high armor pen, alongside spell immunity, WE with WL's core ability, etc...
Choppa has the ability to grant people immunities. They're high AOE damage, but not nearly as Slayer with ID among other abilities.
Tanks have no mitigation ability to rival that bypass.
Healers have no mitigation / healing to rival that bypass beyond absorbs, which are just a core gameplay mechanic.
Engineer/Magus, while they have potentially high burst, do not have the level of movement slayer has.
DPS AM/WP/DoK/Shaman do not rival that with any ability.
Out of these, only WE/WH/BW/Sorc have anything to rival that mitigation / defense bypass.
Don't you think nerfing or buffing to retain players is subjective here?
Meaning, if we nerf a class or buff others to match its strength, the player playing the class in question will feel weaker either way because they can no longer achieve similar results with the same effort.
Also, I do not believe players with their classes being nerfed prompt others to leave the game. What does make them leave is big shift in class identities for eg. BO Waaagh, Chosen Discordant Winds, SH overhauls, Knight Runefang and Mighty Soul, etc.
Or, more relevant to this thread, the QoL change of removing NB after people have been using it for years.
