Recent Topics

Ads

Full regen build ruining the game

We want to hear your thoughts and ideas.
Forum rules
Before posting on this forum, be sure to read the Terms of Use

Structured class balance suggestions belong in the Balance Proposal subforum. Class-related discussion in this section are considered as ongoing debates and ARE NOT reviewed for balance changes.
BeautfulToad
Posts: 631

Re: Full regen build ruining the game

Post#111 » Mon Oct 11, 2021 10:07 am

Grock wrote: Sun Oct 10, 2021 11:28 pm Woah what a thread i have missed, damn!

Not gonna read everything, just wanna drop my point here.

...

Damage bonuses like crit or strenth, on the other hand, have opposite growth effect as you stack them - each further point of investment is relatively less effective because you already got a bunch (although the effect is fairly subtle due to low values).
In other words its better to build multiple sources of damage, instead of relying on maxing out a single one.


Until this disparity is addressed there's no point nerfing Regen, becuse it will just kill it for non-deftard builds, while still leaving the true cause of the problem unattended.
Here's a few issues with what you are saying:
  • All stats become relatively less effective as you increase them, I think 900 or 1k is the softcap for all stats
  • Toughness is only really stacked (by my knowledge) by SnB tanks and one build on magus, rest don't seem to stack it. View used to be, mitigation is kind of useless without wounds
  • Armor pen nerfs armor quite considerably, and all high rr dps have huge armor penetration and casters don't need it
  • Parry/Block is great. If you are facing the person you are fighting.
  • Morals are unaffected by any sort of mitigation.

Not sure why you are arguing that SnB tanks with high mitigation (all they do is mitigate damage, it's their role in the team) are OP and all their current caps are not low enough, but also that health regeneration shouldn't be capped at all.

Ads
User avatar
normanis
Posts: 1304
Contact:

Re: Full regen build ruining the game

Post#112 » Mon Oct 11, 2021 1:13 pm

Sulorie wrote: Sun Oct 10, 2021 7:59 pm
normanis wrote: Sun Oct 10, 2021 4:54 pm 2h tank should assist mdps not vice versa. that why its called tank and melle damage per second. if 2h deal more damage than mdps than we have problem
We are so lucky, that they don't do more damage than mdps.
we are lucky to have u. :D
"Iron Within, Iron Without!"

Sulorie
Posts: 7219

Re: Full regen build ruining the game

Post#113 » Mon Oct 11, 2021 1:16 pm

normanis wrote: Mon Oct 11, 2021 1:13 pm
Sulorie wrote: Sun Oct 10, 2021 7:59 pm We are so lucky, that they don't do more damage than mdps.
we are lucky to have u. :D
All jokes aside, no tank does more damage than mdps.
Dying is no option.

BeautfulToad
Posts: 631

Re: Full regen build ruining the game

Post#114 » Mon Oct 11, 2021 1:22 pm

kazuya482 wrote: Mon Oct 11, 2021 4:14 am
Fleshrender Jewel pieces, offensive sov shoulders, warlord boots and chest all have regen. At least for Chosen.
HV jewelry piece as HP regen

Alubert
Posts: 323

Re: Full regen build ruining the game

Post#115 » Mon Oct 11, 2021 1:49 pm

Is hp regen really so important to you that you devoted 12 pages to it?
First of all hp regen only works in 1vs1 or 1vsxxx environment (only when opponents don't have a single good DD).
So it is not worth to deal with it. If someone likes running solo in a team game let him do it. The game needs population so let's not exclude anyone.
Hp regen helps solo players.
Outside of a 1vs1 environment hp regen is irrelevant.

Secondly any bonus or point spent on hp regen is completely pointless.
Even wearing every piece of equipment with hp regen plus liniment + self heal skills + renown + weapons seft heal bonuses it is completely pointless in a normal game environment.
One tic of my hot on my zealot heals for 1k+. That is only one tic every 3 sec. And when playing in a party you usually have at least 2-3 hots plus direct heal.
With hp regen you can have an embarrassing 500 hp regen (divide the whole value by four, a tic every 4 sec)
Any renown point / set bonus / gear bonus spent on hp regen instead of parry/dodge/disrupt/tougnes/armor ect is total stupidity outside of a niche and meaningless 1v1 environment.

But if some people like to use their class advantage in 1v1 and it makes them feel better let them do it and think they are awesome.
Hurub - Chopa
Wybrany - Chosen
Mroczniak - BG
Doczek - DoK
Alubert - KTB
Mnich -WP
Kregi - Slayer

User avatar
Grock
Posts: 918

Re: Full regen build ruining the game

Post#116 » Mon Oct 11, 2021 4:22 pm

BeautfulToad wrote: Mon Oct 11, 2021 10:07 am Here's a few issues with what you are saying:
  • All stats become relatively less effective as you increase them, I think 900 or 1k is the softcap for all stats
  • Toughness is only really stacked (by my knowledge) by SnB tanks and one build on magus, rest don't seem to stack it. View used to be, mitigation is kind of useless without wounds
  • Armor pen nerfs armor quite considerably, and all high rr dps have huge armor penetration and casters don't need it
  • Parry/Block is great. If you are facing the person you are fighting.
  • Morals are unaffected by any sort of mitigation.

Not sure why you are arguing that SnB tanks with high mitigation (all they do is mitigate damage, it's their role in the team) are OP and all their current caps are not low enough, but also that health regeneration shouldn't be capped at all.
While Toughness does have a softcap, and even with full build it usually doesn't give as much mitigation as armor, it still gives you a value that is substracted from incoming attack's damage, and if the opponent has low strength you can end up with situations like this:
Image
In that screenshot it was at about 500 strength and t1 weapons vs 970~ toughness tank.
(btw that is ~99.44% total mitigation, or "18149% EHP" on that ability hit :lol: )

Toughness is fairly common among solo tanks, engi/magi, some shamans that do the survival build, and also the focus of defensive WE build. In most instances the reason it works so well is because these classes have solid sources of non-physical damage, so they simply bypass the armor and can ignore "weapon skill" as a stat whatsoever, investing those stat points into defence.

Following this, while WS does reduce armor effect, its not enough to counter high armor targets coz base armor values are so ridiculously high at high lvl gear, and can be overstacked so much that even after Weapon Skill it still provides heavy protection. Plus there are "reduced armor pen" bonuses on gear.
Meanwhile WS itself doesn't come easily, it is an expensive investment, while armor for tanks comes mostly for free, just by a virtue of using heavy armour.
Having to stack an expensive and not particularly useful stat just to barely counter one type of opponent, while getting very little against others, and still having your damage mitigated like this:
Image
...feels pretty unfair.
Meanwhile classes that rely on magic damage can put all those stats into something more useful, like defences and survivability, which stacks more efficiently.

Frankly, i think WS-based armorpen is a poor design in general and the game would be better without it - but with armor being rebalanced on the base level.
The fact that everyone has bit of WS just means your armor value is inconsistent and unreliable, and you have to jump through the hoops to figure out how much armor you'd have against different opponents.
It would've been better if things like armorpen came only from abilities and buffs, so that it could be telegraphed via status effects and addons like Buffhead and Aura.

This discussion isn't limited to tanks or SnB builds, its about the underlying math that is used for defence stats which makes it more beneficial to max out certain things, instead of spreading your investments evenly among different defence types.
The regen discussion applies almost exclusively to solo and small scale play, as neither regen nor def builds are an issue in fullgroup/warband level play - regen is negligible compared to healers output, "op defences" of tanks are irrelevant because they aren't your targets, and def builds on dps aren't used much coz tanks and healers provide more than enough protection, and instead you need more firepower to punch through all that.

In the end, im not arguing that defences are just too good overall, but that due to the way def stats are stacking some classes can reach extremely high defences without enough trade-offs in other aspects of their builds, and that makes other things - like regen - feel overpowered as well.
Orkni 85+ (in-game Grock is not me...)
Image

BeautfulToad
Posts: 631

Re: Full regen build ruining the game

Post#117 » Mon Oct 11, 2021 5:06 pm

Grock wrote: Mon Oct 11, 2021 4:22 pm In the end, im not arguing that defences are just too good overall, but that due to the way def stats are stacking some classes can reach extremely high defences without enough trade-offs in other aspects of their builds, and that makes other things - like regen - feel overpowered as well.
I think this is detracting from the topic of health regen a bit. I am not talking about the 300-400 HP regen, which is very good, but the regions of the youtuber are too much, he was claiming 1.2k.

I don't know the situations you are referring to, but tanks are hard to kill. Their entire meta is finding a mdps or a Sorc/BW to guard, taking 1.5x the damage as everyone else. They literally don't do anything else, other than be exceptionally good at king of the hill scenarios. You generally don't even need to kill if you can cope with a small IB punting or snaring you occassionally.

My guess is Ktuyu and Slapdud are absolute SnB beasts, have 0 kills to their name, 100,000 deaths, and are only need to be dealt if they are blocking a doorway.

I don't think many dps would be better of with toughness, only Magus for one build (possibly WL/Mara/Engi).
Last edited by BeautfulToad on Mon Oct 11, 2021 5:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
tazdingo
Posts: 1200

Re: Full regen build ruining the game

Post#118 » Mon Oct 11, 2021 5:12 pm

900~ toughness is a fair investment for tanks, requiring either mixing sets (sacrificing the very good avoidance procs/bonuses), talis (sacrificing armour stacking) or renown (usually sacrificing even more avoidance)

i'm not disagreeing that the relationship between ws and armour isn't busted, in fact i think armour stacking could take another nerf, i've always hated it. but toughness is not easy to stack and is required to stand at the front in rvr. toughness eats flak but does little against big pressure

Also remember that toughness is the only mainstat to not get it's +power (fortitude) implemented from live, and it already took a big hit cause some very irresponsible bgs who definitely did not include myself were stacking it to 1.7k with hilarious results

Ads
User avatar
Grock
Posts: 918

Re: Full regen build ruining the game

Post#119 » Mon Oct 11, 2021 5:53 pm

BeautfulToad wrote: Mon Oct 11, 2021 5:06 pm
Grock wrote: Mon Oct 11, 2021 4:22 pm In the end, im not arguing that defences are just too good overall, but that due to the way def stats are stacking some classes can reach extremely high defences without enough trade-offs in other aspects of their builds, and that makes other things - like regen - feel overpowered as well.
I think this is detracting from the topic of health regen a bit. I am not talking about the 300-400 HP regen, which is very good, but the regions of the youtuber are too much, he was claiming 1.2k.

I don't know the situations you are referring to, but tanks are hard to kill. Their entire meta is finding a mdps or a Sorc/BW to guard, taking 1.5x the damage as everyone else. They literally don't do anything else, other than be exceptionally good at king of the hill scenarios. You generally don't even need to kill if you can cope with a small IB punting or snaring you occassionally.

My guess is Ktuyu and Slapdud are absolute SnB beasts, have 0 kills to their name, 100,000 deaths, and are only need to be dealt if they are blocking a doorway.

I don't think many dps would be better of with toughness, only Magus for one build (possibly WL/Mara/Engi).
I believe the mention of 1.2k regen was referring to IB/BG with their self-heal ability, not just raw regen, there's no way to stack that much.

What im saying is that those 300-400 regen builds are only overperforming when used together with strong defences (since it increases worth of every hit-point you have, or regenerate), but outside of those builds regen is fairly weak.
I've been using it on slayer for some time, and while it makes the game more comfortable by giving you reliable long-term self-sustain, it definitely doesn't help you much in the actual combat, coz you'd be taking x10 more dps than the regen you have.

Again, all of this is in the scope of solo/duo/trio/etc play, not a full group or warband. Kutyu example was just to illustrate how crazy strong Toughness could be against low-mainstat targets. Slapdud though was solo roaming with a 2hander, although to be honest big chunk of that mitigation came from "You Wot!?" 30% armor buff and i was on a somewhat low WS (about 600)

My point is that instead of looking to nerf regen, we should be looking for ways to better balance the trade-offs between damage and survivability build choices.
Maybe there should be stronger distinction between SnB self-defence options and 2h damage options as a way to distinguish between small scale and large scale tank builds.

Its a whole separate topic of its own to explore, im just saying regen isn't the core of the problem, but a symptom of it.
Orkni 85+ (in-game Grock is not me...)
Image

User avatar
Ekundu01
Posts: 306

Re: Full regen build ruining the game

Post#120 » Mon Oct 11, 2021 7:26 pm

Regen is a problem on only some classes. Mainly the ones you see soloing are the only ones that can make regen work for them because there is a niche that allows it to be a bit over the top.

Main classes that can get away with running it are ones that have access to either good mitigation or other skills to compliment the regen.

All tanks with the exception of 7 piece invader have copy paste type gear. The stats on warlord and sov are the same for all tanks yet all tanks are not created equal. This creates imbalances when it comes to performance in the solo/small man roam. There are also imbalances when it comes to order/destro we won't get into that because that will just cause a S'Storm here.

Regen on its own looks bad on paper, what is one hot tick ever 4 seconds really going to do in a fight right? But here are the factors that make it a bit over the top.

1. Mitigation - each time you avoid damage for 4 seconds you are netting more hp than you lose. High Armor/toughness, avoidance mainly parry/absorb, along with in general kiting/punting people away for a few seconds to get extra ticks in.

2. Duration of the fight - the longer it goes on the more it works for you. Lets go on the low side lets say Warlord chest and boots, off sov shoulders, the new regen pocket item and only 1 fleshrender ring. That is 304 regen every 4 seconds. In 3 seconds it would tick 7 times so that is 2128 hp over 30 seconds that can't be heal debuffed, can't be stripped, doesn't cost ap or a global cd.

3. Combining it with other heals - Most if not all solo players are running with Double heal pots and possibly absorb pots. Some are running some sort of heal mechanics from the class they are playing, bullet heal, kiss heal, hot tactics, absorb skills/tactics/morale. Straight damage avoidance like confusing movements or other avoidance boosting abilities.

When you factor in all this combined you end up having almost 2 lifebars or more depending on how long the fight drags out to be.

The reason this crap works so well on some classes is because they have the loop hole to get by being more defensive while still having a way to deal damage. Mainly classes that don't have any way to deal non physical damage draw the short straw. Not saying you can't make it work on physical only classes but you have a much harder time because everyone has access to armor pots. Classes that have access to magic damage can spec more defensive and not lose much of anything. Now that some of the procs scale with damage stats from recent changes it makes being defensive even more easy.

Think about it this way what if all healers had a permanent hot that can't crit but can't be debuffed running 24/7 that doesn't cost ap or a global that stacks with everything? How hard would it be to kill the healer that is now running from you casting other heals and hots and absorbs? This is what regen is like in a nut shell in the solo game. And most solo 70+ players are all running this because the only way to beat it is to outlast them because most players are not going to have the burst to end it quickly.
Trismack

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: evildeadbird, Xameleon and 26 guests