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Is endgame PvP just zerging and keep-takes?

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Stahn123
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Posts: 87

Re: Is endgame PvP just zerging and keep-takes?

Post#41 » Tue Oct 05, 2021 12:34 pm

TreefAM wrote: Sat Oct 02, 2021 9:29 am Lmao sure all I see here is a random destro pug whining randomly why destro isn't zerging anymore.
And please people like you couldn't give names even if it wasn't under the rule of "naming and shaming" because you know **** and are trying to make an excuse.
Try organizing instead of crying MUH ZERG but it's easier to whine on the forums like order did few months ago and it's always the same ****.
You can't organize when there isn't anyone TOO organize, you DO understand this concept? No amount of organization is going to let you win against 3 times your number currently. The tools just aren't there.

I used to play Order, I've heard it on discord on numerous occasions, hell at one point we had half the players online in the alliance do it. Only reason more didn't go was because they simply refuse to play Destro at all. Although I do love how you somehow know what's going on in places you aren't in. That's almost God like, you should market that as a super power and go into business for yourself. You can make a killing.

Destro doesn't zerg because they can't. There's nobody to zerg with. 3 people does not a zerg make. These days it's hard to find a group to run boxes with even. It's that bad. If you don't see it, you don't play in the 20 hour window when Order runs the server and therefore have no idea what's actually going on our being talked about. You're just blathering, I'm only responding to give you the shadow of the doubt that you'll see points being made. There wouldn't be so many saying the same thing if it weren't something actually happening.

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BeautfulToad
Posts: 631

Re: Is endgame PvP just zerging and keep-takes?

Post#42 » Tue Oct 05, 2021 12:37 pm

RoR is probably the best mmorpg around. Unless New Worlds has massive 250v250 sieges every night, and 100v100 sieges every hour of every day, it won't come close.

If you are feeling underwhelmed or stressed, just take a break for a bit.

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Acidic
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Re: Is endgame PvP just zerging and keep-takes?

Post#43 » Tue Oct 05, 2021 12:37 pm

oaliaen wrote: Sat Oct 02, 2021 5:47 pm Ye fluf..but ppl leave and ppl come..The game should had done something to stop it. Cause depending on ppl, it never will.
Agree also with this. The game rewards zerging by bag rolls on zones and zone flip.
I believe they tried something on flip bo/keep/zone rr reward that failed. My feeling should be along the lines of divide losing sides total (or % of) rr gain over the winning side on flip. Walk over and enemy could not gain anything the fight was meaningless so no free reward. Also remove items in bags. That way reward for zerging is removed.

But following up on the thread as to why the population discrepancy between order/Destro it is clear that there is a big difference in players view of balance and devs.
-players tend to join the side that has better tools, 6+ months of Destro nerfs is visible in player numbers
-players tend to play longer when they win, consistent Destro loosing in forts with get good feedback .. visible in Destro numbers, swarms of Slayers with rampage+ID vs choppa with GTDC and ap does not help win
-focused nerf of nearly every Destro tool to compete ..
-results from ranked . Public win rate stats does not show reality . If you looked at median of class mmr (which is what ranked is about) shows clearly that slayer is noticeable above average (did the stats a week after it died) . But also here the logic of when it matters or not is odd and lacks consistency
-......

The list can go on but no point.

In short from a Destro player stand point, which is reflected in numbers, it looks bad
Last edited by Acidic on Tue Oct 05, 2021 1:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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ufthakk
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Re: Is endgame PvP just zerging and keep-takes?

Post#44 » Tue Oct 05, 2021 1:00 pm

Acidic wrote: Tue Oct 05, 2021 12:37 pm
oaliaen wrote: Sat Oct 02, 2021 5:47 pm Ye fluf..but ppl leave and ppl come..The game should had done something to stop it. Cause depending on ppl, it never will.
Agree also with this. The game rewards zerging by bag rolls on zones and zone flip.
I believe they tried something on flip bo/keep/zone rr reward that failed. My feeling should be along the lines of divide losing sides total (or % of) rr gain over the winning side on flip. Walk over and enemy could not gain anything the fight was meaningless so no free reward. Also remove items in bags. That way reward for zerging is removed.
Maybe move from bags to currency from fights while also making sets more affordable would help. Some attention about the current RvR situation is needed.
It's never only a player issue. Just try something, if it doesn't work out we still appreciate the effort.

BeautfulToad
Posts: 631

Re: Is endgame PvP just zerging and keep-takes?

Post#45 » Tue Oct 05, 2021 1:05 pm

I'd personally make the grind less severe for players, but that's just me. More rr and medal drops to put people on a level playing field. Nothing more demoralising than being constantly ganked by the same WH over and over again at level 20.

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Scottx125
Posts: 965

Re: Is endgame PvP just zerging and keep-takes?

Post#46 » Tue Oct 05, 2021 3:05 pm

Both sides zerg unfortunately. My guild tries to fight 24v24 in a more even sense. But pugs just follow top organised WB's and end up creating a zerg. Especially when they keep getting beat or pushed back to WC. Order zergs more often, but zerg vs zerg destro normally has the advantage.
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Wraithedge
Posts: 135

Re: Is endgame PvP just zerging and keep-takes?

Post#47 » Tue Oct 05, 2021 3:43 pm

I feel like when one talks about flatly disincentivising zergs one is talking about putting a cap on effort.

How many people do we want to field?
As many as we can get.

How hard to we want to fight?
As hard as we can.

Weeeeellll you can field some people but don’t field too many, and you can fight hard but don’t fight too hard. Its okay to win but don’t win by too much.

To put players in a position that they need to game the game in order to tease rewards from it is not a great idea.

The ideal condition is that more effort equals more rewards. Bringing more people is acceptable, trying harder is acceptable, winning by any margin large or small is acceptable.

Perhaps a larger kind of organization that promotes spreading out WBs across zones could promote a decrease in zerging while maintaining the “effort=reward” paradigm.

What if controlling combinations of BOs across different zones could unlock the ability to activate force multipliers like NPC support followers or if it offers the opportunity to take control of powerful items on particular maps temporarily, increase mobility through “deepstrike” style one-way gates.

Anything to reward communication, organization and spreading out your forces.

I am already watching Witch Elves stand on keep walls immortal and unstoppable, killing whole WBs as they please without taking a pixel of damage. The fear of adding too much power to the game is now a dumb one.

Perhaps concentrate on making the power interesting and compelling, requiring diversity of location rather than having a guard and four healers in your pocket.

You don’t want a thundering blob? Give smaller WB’s a way to combat a thundering blob through some other means.

You don't want there to be just one door? Make some other doors.

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Posts: 286

Re: Is endgame PvP just zerging and keep-takes?

Post#48 » Tue Oct 05, 2021 10:16 pm

wargrimnir wrote: Sat Oct 02, 2021 6:43 pm
Stahn123 wrote: Sat Oct 02, 2021 3:46 am LOL. These comments are great. Glad to see the community finally coming out and saying things in volume that force a response.

The Devs and formers basically just said they play Order or have no problem with the imbalances here and to leave if we don't like it. So, does that mean you all have no intention to fix what we, and now you, all know to be issues? There have been many ideas and suggestions given and posted. They aren't always meant to be taken as gospel or done exactly, it's to generate ideas and possible solutions. They're trying to help.

Destro chat has, as of lately, been full of defeatism. They are leaving. There will be no Destro soon. There is already talk of boycotts of forts, city, etc. Most already don't show up to defend a keep because it's pointless. They can NEVER go on offense, and that is a morale killer. No quests or events give credit for defense, or attempted defense, so they'll never obtain any of those rewards. Even if every single Destro on the server 16+ was in the lakes, they'd still be outnumbered. Last night they tried to take a fort in TM while Order had 40% AAO, within 10 minutes and before the first wall went down, that turned into 60% AAO for Destro. Destro players gave up immediately and left. Order then went on to push several zones almost uncontested. There is a HUGE problem here with population, and until it's addressed, you will continue to see Destro players leaving and no "good fights" will be had. It will eventually become boycotts and abandonment. How bad does it have to get? Apparently according to the team on this thread, much.

Order guilds swap to Destro and push for the 5 star Altdorf, during the 2nd fort attack they begin to log off and let the PUG finish the Lord, they then log on their Order main and steamroll all the Destro because they're gear isn't anywhere near to par and they have less experience in the city. This results in full gold bags and easy wins for Order. It's the ONLY TIME Altdorf even comes under siege. The devs know this, and have stated here they don't mind the unbalance, and if you don't like it to leave.

Now, perhaps we should take up them up on their "leave" option? Leave rvr, leave Destro, leave them starved for pvp until they fix the problems they've created for themselves? So far I haven't seen a post mention a Destro class in the Dev comments here that they personally play. They obviously don't play in the off hours as Destro or we wouldn't be having this conversation at all. Of course, if there is a reply to this at all, they will claim the contrary, but you don't see that volunteered first, meaning it's not what they are playing currently or recently. The whole "no bias" thing has to be shown after all, but the admittance to unbalance and the intent to not fix it says that it's known about but they just don't care to address, fix, or otherwise acknowledge it. So, lets do what they said. Let's leave. Give them nothing. No fights, no renown, no SC, no ranked, no rvr. Just pve dungeons, get gear, get unlocks, do all the K8P quests. Stock up potions for when the fix eventually comes, or just join Order and get bags. See the other side of the game for a while without any danger, you'll get to see the keeps and the battles you never get to experience. Just a few thoughts, after all we are all entitled to our opinions as GamesBond said, right? So, lets give our opinions and do what it takes to generate the fix we've been waiting months for.
Nothing GB said had anything to do with the terrible biased take you've got going on here. Development does not bow to one side or the other, balance does not exist to tip the scales. This is very directly addressed if you read the stickied posts in the balance proposal section of the forums. It's not that "we don't mind the unbalance" it's more that it's hardly our responsibility to make sure each realm has competent leaders that can lead effectively. This is a cycle we've seen repeat on both realms. It's not something we address directly to tip the scales, despite the outcry from people both blaming and begging us to be biased.

Destro has all the tools they need to win in large scale battles already. RvR is ALWAYS a numbers game, balance takes a big backseat when you're fielding 50-100 more people at a time. You (Destro leadership, most likely not you specifically) needs to recruit more people, lead them effectively, and fight the defeatist attitudes from the community side that YOU specifically are espousing. Devs are not going to fight that battle for the community because that would absolutely be representative of the bias you're essentially accusing them of to begin with.

Find a different battle to fight on the forums and keep development staff and accusations of bias out of it.
I’m not going to address the balance portion of this post because I just plain don’t know enough about all of the classes to make a comparison. That being said, I am genuinely curious to know what it would take for something to not be the players’ fault? In two posts in a single week you’ve blamed casuals for ruining MMOs, which could easily be interpreted to mean you were also referring to RoR casuals being at fault for issues in this game, while also blaming Destro leadership for being outnumbered to the point where nobody wants to play that particular faction. At what point does the way the game is designed/run (e.g. rewards offered for specific activities, class balancing, etc.) come in to play?
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abezverkhiy
Posts: 551

Re: Is endgame PvP just zerging and keep-takes?

Post#49 » Tue Oct 05, 2021 10:53 pm

This whole thing with complaining about zergs is sooo stupid. This is mentality of people in general to stay with a crowd. You gotta find a new planet if you have problems with this.

Jokes aside there are good solo players so why don't you become one? Or explore all pve content? Or form a small group of like-minded individuals and roam as an organised group? Or focus on scenarios? Or theorycrafting in capitals? Or fashionhammer?

Why whinging?
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Vri
Posts: 608

Re: Is endgame PvP just zerging and keep-takes?

Post#50 » Wed Oct 06, 2021 1:37 am

Bloodmasked wrote: Thu Sep 16, 2021 6:54 am During off-peak (non-EU) time zone it is mostly just zerging and keep-takes, thats why I have basically retired for the past few months. Theres zero interest for me as a rr84 dok.

The last few weeks I played it was extremely hard to find groupmates, the people who did end up joining me were commonly bad/toxic, had boring playstyle (staring at keep doors/running supplies/not fighting) or just outright lied to me. For example, I wanted a witch elf to follow me around in city siege as a 6man group, they said they would, and then proceeded to never follow me or attack any of my targets. That happened the majority of times I made a group so I got bored of trying. Of course there are some times you get a good team and make alot of kills in a zone, but its alot of effort to set that up and sometimes the people who you wanna group with are just not online.

The thing that is really killing RoR is the fort->2nd fort->city siege campaign. (atleast in off-peak, when I typically play). They should definitely remove running supplies too cos they are just boring PVE non-sense.

Ranked is basically a complete joke since everyone wants to do "Solo Ranked", which makes zero sense in a team orientated game. Regular scenarios are also really scuffed, its not uncommon for people to just AFK at spawn and complain that the other side is an OP class, OP faction, or are cheating simply because they are in a group versus solo players.

TLDR: the current game doesn't suit people who play semi-seriously or hardcore, RoR seems to be mostly focused on casual and boring playstyles aka pugs.
Did we talk about this in ROR disc a week or so ago ?

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