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Dragon's Talon

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normanis
Posts: 814
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Re: Dragon's Talon

Post#21 » Thu Jul 22, 2021 2:29 pm

dragons talon - 4 sec
vs black orc 10sec.
4 sec its mean u need spam 1 button rotation (with plan b) to have it 100% and u cant use ather rotations to not loose dragons talon ''buff'' .
p.s 1. when destro zerg attack sm he just can make 1 roation on 1 target for dragons talon 4sec???
2. sm can use bubble , wrath of hoeth and spam ww.
what u choose?

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Battlefield
Posts: 160

Re: Dragon's Talon

Post#22 » Thu Jul 22, 2021 4:02 pm

normanis wrote:
Thu Jul 22, 2021 2:29 pm
dragons talon - 4 sec
vs black orc 10sec.
4 sec its mean u need spam 1 button rotation (with plan b) to have it 100% and u cant use ather rotations to not loose dragons talon ''buff'' .
p.s 1. when destro zerg attack sm he just can make 1 roation on 1 target for dragons talon 4sec???
2. sm can use bubble , wrath of hoeth and spam ww.
what u choose?

Black orc needs a block to use Ya missed me and 20 seconds cooldown after but reapet SM does not need a block to use and Dragon's Talon has no cooldown, also reapet ofc SMs using Ether Dance or Dazzling strike (for caster only) ability but when it goes to cooldown 8 seconds one time after without any problems they can use Dragon's Talon too. Maybe need to increase a bit duaration for Dragon's Talon i agree but it must require parry, block or shield and some cooldown too.
For example 5 seconds duaration 10 seconds cooldown or 10 seconds duaration 20 seconds cooldown
Last edited by Battlefield on Thu Jul 22, 2021 4:15 pm, edited 4 times in total.

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Ekundu01
Posts: 282

Re: Dragon's Talon

Post#23 » Thu Jul 22, 2021 4:07 pm

Battlefield wrote:
Thu Jul 22, 2021 4:02 pm
normanis wrote:
Thu Jul 22, 2021 2:29 pm
dragons talon - 4 sec
vs black orc 10sec.
4 sec its mean u need spam 1 button rotation (with plan b) to have it 100% and u cant use ather rotations to not loose dragons talon ''buff'' .
p.s 1. when destro zerg attack sm he just can make 1 roation on 1 target for dragons talon 4sec???
2. sm can use bubble , wrath of hoeth and spam ww.
what u choose?

Black orc needs a block to use Ya missed me and 20 seconds cooldown after but reapet SM does not need a block to use and Dragon's Talon has no cooldown, also reapet ofc SMs using Ether Dance or Dazzling strike ability but when it goes to cooldown 8 seconds one time after without any problems they can use Dragon's Talon too. Maybe need to increase a bit duaration for Dragon's Talon i agree but it must require parry, block or shield and also some cooldown.
The biggest difference is the BO version only works on physical damage and the SM works on all damage and can be slotted for aoe.
Trismack

ashton007
Posts: 305

Re: Dragon's Talon

Post#24 » Thu Jul 22, 2021 8:56 pm

I’d just like to know why this talent is ok (stacks with guard/challenge) but chosen had to lose crippling strikes. They have roughly the same effectiveness.

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Battlefield
Posts: 160

Re: Dragon's Talon

Post#25 » Fri Jul 23, 2021 10:32 am

ashton007 wrote:
Thu Jul 22, 2021 8:56 pm
I’d just like to know why this talent is ok (stacks with guard/challenge) but chosen had to lose crippling strikes. They have roughly the same effectiveness.
good question...and crippling strikes needed a critical hit to get it debuff and tactic slot

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Aethilmar
Posts: 378

Re: Dragon's Talon

Post#26 » Fri Jul 23, 2021 6:22 pm

ashton007 wrote:
Thu Jul 22, 2021 8:56 pm
I’d just like to know why this talent is ok (stacks with guard/challenge) but chosen had to lose crippling strikes. They have roughly the same effectiveness.
Well if you guys want to discuss this in the context of making the SM as effective a tank as a Chosen then I'm totally down for that conversation.

Dabbart
Posts: 2122

Re: Dragon's Talon

Post#27 » Fri Jul 23, 2021 8:17 pm

But is that the point? That using it for maximum uptime is an inefficient use of GCDs? I don't think it is. Other tanks require Block for the same ability is the argument put forth, and that is just incorrect.

Vigilance lessens damage taken by the Knight, Oppression lessens damage taken by the Chosen, Ya Missed Me! Is the only ability that functions as Dragon Talon in it reduces a ST damage output. It is undefendable and lasts 10s and has 20s CD. DT lasts 4 seconds with no CD, hits twice, but is defendable.

Y'all are comparing apples to acorns. The abilities do different things, hence different timers, CDs, and requirements.

Would also like to point out, BO has 2 block increase tactics(Which technically shouldn't stack with each other anymore, but that's a different point), whereas SM only has 1. SM's AoE DT talon(which now shouldn't stack with any ability) is MUCH better than BO's added punt. But, 4s uptime is still tiny. Using multiple SMs to chain AoE DTs is possible, but not really efficient.

One must also remember the Old balancing, where BOs and Destro had the superior morale pump, and therefore faster M2/M4 in that SM/Order "needed" a spammable damage reduction outside of Challenge calls that stacked. This is still technically the case, regardless of AM morale pump, but not as prevalent as in the past.

If you want to change Vigilance, Oppression, Ya Missed Me!, and Dragon Talon to all perform the same I would be against it. Different classes on different realms need to be balanced slightly differently. Imo.

If you add any form of check to Dragon Talon(ie needs shield, or needs block) then you should increase the uptime past 4s. But doing this makes the AoE tactic possibly broken. Unless the "bug" is fixed and AoE DT no long stacks with any other ability damage reduction.

My question, is there a reason that this should be changed? Other than; "They get cool stuff, I want cooler stuff!"?
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BluIzLucky
Posts: 153

Re: Dragon's Talon

Post#28 » Sat Jul 24, 2021 8:28 am

Dabbart wrote:
Fri Jul 23, 2021 8:17 pm
My question, is there a reason that this should be changed? Other than; "They get cool stuff, I want cooler stuff!"?
Yep, this feels a little like the Sham vs AM post earlier, if you think it looks so good on paper, why don't you try it out.. :)

I'll gladly give this to knight/chosen (of course change to 2 sec duration to match what SMs have to do) if SM/BO get to run 3 blade/bellows at the same time and they all had a 100% uptime and reduced enemy resists / armor / wounds :lol:
SM - Arhalien +R80
AM - Shaheena +R80
ZL - Wildera +70

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ashton007
Posts: 305

Re: Dragon's Talon

Post#29 » Sun Aug 01, 2021 7:02 am

Aethilmar wrote:
Fri Jul 23, 2021 6:22 pm
ashton007 wrote:
Thu Jul 22, 2021 8:56 pm
I’d just like to know why this talent is ok (stacks with guard/challenge) but chosen had to lose crippling strikes. They have roughly the same effectiveness.
Well if you guys want to discuss this in the context of making the SM as effective a tank as a Chosen then I'm totally down for that conversation.
Group absorb/heal/damage reduction/ cool down reduction for your entire party isn’t enough?? I’m just saying it doesn’t make sense to leave CS out of the game any longer with SM having the same Basic ability.

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Sinisterror
Posts: 336

Re: Dragon's Talon

Post#30 » Sun Aug 01, 2021 1:13 pm

ashton007 wrote:
Sun Aug 01, 2021 7:02 am
Aethilmar wrote:
Fri Jul 23, 2021 6:22 pm
ashton007 wrote:
Thu Jul 22, 2021 8:56 pm
I’d just like to know why this talent is ok (stacks with guard/challenge) but chosen had to lose crippling strikes. They have roughly the same effectiveness.
Well if you guys want to discuss this in the context of making the SM as effective a tank as a Chosen then I'm totally down for that conversation.
Group absorb/heal/damage reduction/ cool down reduction for your entire party isn’t enough?? I’m just saying it doesn’t make sense to leave CS out of the game any longer with SM having the same Basic ability.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ClRtebJfGtM

If you are comparing Dragon's talon to CS i mean come on : DD Check on the video how different things we are talking about. CS lasts 10 second and have no icd so it can refresh itself + Chosen having Rending Blade 5 sec cooldown so it was so easy to spread it aoe espesially since it refreshes itself. Also didnt Quake use to have like 65 feet range ? Imagine 9 sec stagger on enemies(this nerf was good but 4.5 sec at least 3 sec nah) And probably at least 6 of those 9 have CS and as soon as they attack and break stagger probably all 9 will have it.

These skills are comparable only by -25% dmg. Everything else is ridicls. Also chosen debuffs all nearby him and buff all party members. Even if Dragon's talon was usable in every stance it still would be so bad comparing because you cannot debuff or buff or do anything else but keep DT up.
"To clarify, me asking to developers to go test their own changes is not sign of toxicity or anger, but a sign of hope that the people punching in the numbers remain aware of potential consequences and test their own changes"-Teefz

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