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Broadhead Arrow Suggestion.

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madrocks
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Posts: 223

Re: Broadhead Arrow Suggestion.

Post#41 » Tue Jun 15, 2021 12:56 pm

Spoiler:
Meliannia wrote: Tue Jun 15, 2021 12:49 pm
Justina wrote: Fri Jun 11, 2021 7:36 am

What is really broken in this game is the amount of times you are getting pulled by maras and choppas while order has not really working pull at all. Lots of free kills for destro. We can nerf broadhead when you nerf that pull crap too.

pulled through walls, pulled through doors, pulled through ceilings into floor below, even pulled across the river in eataine from one shore to opposite shore
guaranteed one order victim insta kill per 30 secs .

Give Slayer mobile melee pull "Get To da Ginga."
Give White Lion mobile melee pull "Come to the Cat"

then by all means lets talk about Broadhead.

how long did it take us to have a convo about the blatantly OP rSH after the buffed from 2/10 to 10/10 patch? 5 months and 7 threads?
You got 5months and 6 more threads to go, keep at it.....
We are talking BHA not Choppa pulls. Stay on topic!

The way this dot is stacking is wrong, along with the whole refresh dot mechanic on top of it, and needs a tweak.
The whole concept of the SW is wrong. So many escape tools, constant snares, self punt to altdorf, makes legit no sense.
Can't have a one fit all class, especially not with this kind of questionable people class stacking for the lols and ruining the good fight.

Since you bring up RSH, it's been butchered in such an ignorant way.
Proposed by those that apparently frequented the solo ranked branch of the game but yet nowhere to be found since the destro nerfs.
Last edited by madrocks on Tue Jun 15, 2021 1:04 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Parallell86
Posts: 241

Re: Broadhead Arrow Suggestion.

Post#42 » Tue Jun 15, 2021 12:57 pm

Justina wrote: Tue Jun 15, 2021 8:42 am
Auzor wrote: Tue Jun 15, 2021 8:25 am Shift part of BHA's damage to Flame Arrow;
and make both have a cast time of 1s. Same DPS, but liable to random interrupts... and Flame Arrow's dot can be cleansed in 1 go.
Flame Arrow also can only be used in Skirmish Stance, and has a shorter duration (more frequent application needed).

Split arrows tactic, should still be higher in the tree.
That would somewhat reduce the damage this does to mid-tier scenario's.
Even so, I still think Split Arrows tactic may necessitate an additional downside;
Compare BHA to melee aoe. BHA with split arrow has 65ft range and you have to be in squishy skirmish stance. Melee aoe has 40ft range with medium armor, more life, more parry/disrupt/doge and melee is always instant. Melees do far more damage in 3 global cooldowns than a SW with 3x putting BHA on you.

Putting the tactic higher in the tree wouldn't change a thing. All skirmish SW go pretty much full skirmish. The BHA SW is a one trick pony. The split arrow thing is good in fort situations and other tight spaces but that's it. As BHA SW you are basically losing all single target pressure. Compare that to a SH. They have tons of single target pressure with their skirmish build and they have their aoe damage in the squig armor build. They are however also losing single target pressure in their aoe build.

Changing split arrow / BHA would break the SW even more. You want SWs without damage? Not gonna happen.
First, no melee dps stack every defensive trait you just listed, we got parry and thats it. Second, the medium armor doesnt make you the slightest tanky. Third, every Order class I can find an issue with here has armor debuff. Fourth, the SH is being nerfed on top of nerf on top of nerf. TYhey are even nerfed when the class itself isnt nerfed. The mSH was a problem, too OP they said. They removed the Black orc cd decrease which hit the mSH in group play, and then they nerfed the mSH still.

But ye, keep praising Destro. We got unlimited possibilities and order got none. Thanks, I havent laughed so hard in a while. *cough* WE and WH are supposed to be the most similiar mirror classes and has almost always been. WE has a useless pounce without damage and WH got as 1k armor debuff. Let me hear the WE is still somehow superior to WH.

BeautfulToad
Posts: 631

Re: Broadhead Arrow Suggestion.

Post#43 » Tue Jun 15, 2021 2:55 pm

I don't really understand this.

Surely the argument is that BHA should have some upper limit to the stacking?

If the argument is you need stacking to cause damage, just up the armor penetration and don't let it stack or let it stack a lot, but not infinitely, e.g. 4-5 times?

Are players saying BHA should be infinitely stacked?

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Deviance01
Posts: 10

Re: Broadhead Arrow Suggestion.

Post#44 » Tue Jun 15, 2021 4:28 pm

BeautfulToad wrote: Tue Jun 15, 2021 2:55 pm I don't really understand this.

Surely the argument is that BHA should have some upper limit to the stacking?

If the argument is you need stacking to cause damage, just up the armor penetration and don't let it stack or let it stack a lot, but not infinitely, e.g. 4-5 times?

Are players saying BHA should be infinitely stacked?
Its a combination of things, in its current state its broken.
Either because its limit to stacking, or/and power. Needs a change in one of them values to balance it.
Personally id leave its damage unchanged, its needed by SW for the smallscale or 1vx/ SC.
id rather exclude it from AOE appliance and add a stack limit.
" As long as a single one of us stands, we are legion. "

Unholy - Chaos Marauder

Auzor
Posts: 46

Re: Broadhead Arrow Suggestion.

Post#45 » Tue Jun 15, 2021 6:30 pm

Justina wrote: Tue Jun 15, 2021 8:42 am
Auzor wrote: Tue Jun 15, 2021 8:25 am Shift part of BHA's damage to Flame Arrow;
and make both have a cast time of 1s. Same DPS, but liable to random interrupts... and Flame Arrow's dot can be cleansed in 1 go.
Flame Arrow also can only be used in Skirmish Stance, and has a shorter duration (more frequent application needed).

Split arrows tactic, should still be higher in the tree.
That would somewhat reduce the damage this does to mid-tier scenario's.
Even so, I still think Split Arrows tactic may necessitate an additional downside;
Compare BHA to melee aoe. BHA with split arrow has 65ft range and you have to be in squishy skirmish stance. Melee aoe has 40ft range with medium armor, more life, more parry/disrupt/doge and melee is always instant. Melees do far more damage in 3 global cooldowns than a SW with 3x putting BHA on you.

Putting the tactic higher in the tree wouldn't change a thing. All skirmish SW go pretty much full skirmish. The BHA SW is a one trick pony. The split arrow thing is good in fort situations and other tight spaces but that's it. As BHA SW you are basically losing all single target pressure. Compare that to a SH. They have tons of single target pressure with their skirmish build and they have their aoe damage in the squig armor build. They are however also losing single target pressure in their aoe build.

Changing split arrow / BHA would break the SW even more. You want SWs without damage? Not gonna happen.
....

way to go.
Nothing you said, actually addressed any point of mine, and nothing you said, added anything of value.

I wrote:

"Split arrows tactic, should still be higher in the tree.
That would somewhat reduce the damage this does to mid-tier scenario's. "

Answer:
"Putting the tactic higher in the tree wouldn't change a thing. All skirmish SW go pretty much full skirmish"

if one needs to be rank 25+ to get the tactic, it sure helps the mid-tier scenario's at least...

I wrote:

"Shift part of BHA's damage to Flame Arrow;
and make both have a cast time of 1s. Same DPS, but liable to random interrupts... and Flame Arrow's dot can be cleansed in 1 go.
Flame Arrow also can only be used in Skirmish Stance, and has a shorter duration (more frequent application needed). "

Your answer:
"
Changing split arrow / BHA would break the SW even more. You want SWs without damage? Not gonna happen."

Shifting part of BHA dmg to Flame arrow... would mean the value of the tactic is a bit lowered; and the SW has to actually use 2 buttons.
The damage output in this manner... would be preserved.

The idea of adding a 1s cast time: SW skirmish can cast on the move; but it becomes liable to random interrupts, losing range, losing LoS,....
a bit like... Pandemonium!


You wrote:

"They are however also losing single target pressure in their aoe build."

uhu.
How is this so different from any other class?

then, regarding this particular gem:

"Compare BHA to melee aoe. BHA with split arrow has 65ft range and you have to be in squishy skirmish stance. Melee aoe has 40ft range with medium armor, more life, more parry/disrupt/doge and melee is always instant. Melees do far more damage in 3 global cooldowns than a SW with 3x putting BHA on you."

Check again, not all melee AoE's have 40 ft range.
Several are 'hit an extra target, within 15 feet'.
Medium armor: sure. Plenty of elemental/spirit/corporeal dmg to go around; or outright armor ignore.
More parry, sure.
Disrupt & dodge: un-likely.
Melee does far more dmg in 3 global cooldowns: I should hope so, as BHA is a 15 second DoT; 21 seconds if you picked the damn tactic.
I don't know of a great many melee dot's with those type of durations.

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Adelmar
Posts: 137

Re: Broadhead Arrow Suggestion.

Post#46 » Tue Jun 15, 2021 11:18 pm

Here's a suggestion: just bring the old single stack BHA back. If the devs want to leave the aoe aspect of in a tactic, so be it. Also, make it able to be cast in assault stance again. There, everyone wins.

Also, lol at giving BHA or Flame Arrow a 1 second cast.
Adelmar (WH) - RR8X
Audari (WE) - RR7X
Contract (SW) - RR8X

Sever1n
Posts: 180

Re: Broadhead Arrow Suggestion.

Post#47 » Wed Jun 16, 2021 3:19 am

As sw i was in city with rolgroms band, and can say destro melleblob comp have all the chanses to wipe us. Try sw against 7guarded docs comps guys and then tell how broken bha is. U wanna play zerobrain melle armored blob have no treat and kill puny elves? Bfa on forts is stakable yes. On who? On idiots who stand in doorway like min str8. There is a wals u can hide on easy. Staking bfa on tank its like 10 missesand then u have stack. Was playing on sw half of year all players vine how its trash compared to msh. No one take them on regular in cityes even novafays. Exepts rolgrom. And i believe even he realire thatthat comp have zero chances against melle blob la 7sov docs. U want take bha? Fine. No problem really. Just make sw a class that can be competitive with other dps. Try kill sov docs with spam of bfa. They will not even feel it. Have u even tryed make rdps and shoot back? No destro laugh at order that they create ton of rdps and nowcand hold its critical mass with bilions of melke? Maybe its time to SHOOT BACK? 65ft is a death range. If you let staking bfa on u its your problem. Forts have spots where everyone can hide from dot spamers. If u want change of sw so lets talk about class rework owerall not like bfa has to go 100 ft cd has to go. Wp/docs wh/we has to go aswell and u all know it.

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agemennon675
Posts: 504

Re: Broadhead Arrow Suggestion.

Post#48 » Wed Jun 16, 2021 5:51 am

Sever1n wrote: Wed Jun 16, 2021 3:19 am As sw i was in city with rolgroms band, and can say destro melleblob comp have all the chanses to wipe us. Try sw against 7guarded docs comps guys and then tell how broken bha is. U wanna play zerobrain melle armored blob have no treat and kill puny elves? Bfa on forts is stakable yes. On who? On idiots who stand in doorway like min str8. There is a wals u can hide on easy. Staking bfa on tank its like 10 missesand then u have stack. Was playing on sw half of year all players vine how its trash compared to msh. No one take them on regular in cityes even novafays. Exepts rolgrom. And i believe even he realire thatthat comp have zero chances against melle blob la 7sov docs. U want take bha? Fine. No problem really. Just make sw a class that can be competitive with other dps. Try kill sov docs with spam of bfa. They will not even feel it. Have u even tryed make rdps and shoot back? No destro laugh at order that they create ton of rdps and nowcand hold its critical mass with bilions of melke? Maybe its time to SHOOT BACK? 65ft is a death range. If you let staking bfa on u its your problem. Forts have spots where everyone can hide from dot spamers. If u want change of sw so lets talk about class rework owerall not like bfa has to go 100 ft cd has to go. Wp/docs wh/we has to go aswell and u all know it.
Sw comp and or other physical dmg comps in city have very low chance to win agains 4 mara comps, our marauders could survive face tanking order blob unguarded its insane. SW have enough downsides and its far from the best dps option on order, I personally dont want to see the old SW back which tickled enemy team and called “support dps”. People hate BHA because they can see the stacks on their buffhead and it bothers them, because its obviously a pug bane, any pug warband that doesnt have healers or tanks hates it. Solution is simple; stop joining unorganised warbands and join organised ones. If the amount of stacks is the problem it can be limited,if the limit applied to all dots on any class.
Destruction: 40-BG / 40-DoK / 40-Chosen / 37-Mara / 37/Sorc / 36-SH / 36-Choppa / 24-Shaman / 16-WE
Order: 40-SW / 40-SM / 40-WP / 40-WL / 39-Kotbs / 38-BW / 33-AM / 22-WH / 16-RP / 12-Slayer

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Littleone
Posts: 36

Re: Broadhead Arrow Suggestion.

Post#49 » Wed Jun 16, 2021 7:41 am

agemennon675 wrote: Wed Jun 16, 2021 5:51 am
Sever1n wrote: Wed Jun 16, 2021 3:19 am As sw i was in city with rolgroms band, and can say destro melleblob comp have all the chanses to wipe us. Try sw against 7guarded docs comps guys and then tell how broken bha is. U wanna play zerobrain melle armored blob have no treat and kill puny elves? Bfa on forts is stakable yes. On who? On idiots who stand in doorway like min str8. There is a wals u can hide on easy. Staking bfa on tank its like 10 missesand then u have stack. Was playing on sw half of year all players vine how its trash compared to msh. No one take them on regular in cityes even novafays. Exepts rolgrom. And i believe even he realire thatthat comp have zero chances against melle blob la 7sov docs. U want take bha? Fine. No problem really. Just make sw a class that can be competitive with other dps. Try kill sov docs with spam of bfa. They will not even feel it. Have u even tryed make rdps and shoot back? No destro laugh at order that they create ton of rdps and nowcand hold its critical mass with bilions of melke? Maybe its time to SHOOT BACK? 65ft is a death range. If you let staking bfa on u its your problem. Forts have spots where everyone can hide from dot spamers. If u want change of sw so lets talk about class rework owerall not like bfa has to go 100 ft cd has to go. Wp/docs wh/we has to go aswell and u all know it.
Sw comp and or other physical dmg comps in city have very low chance to win agains 4 mara comps, our marauders could survive face tanking order blob unguarded its insane. SW have enough downsides and its far from the best dps option on order, I personally dont want to see the old SW back which tickled enemy team and called “support dps”. People hate BHA because they can see the stacks on their buffhead and it bothers them, because its obviously a pug bane, any pug warband that doesnt have healers or tanks hates it. Solution is simple; stop joining unorganised warbands and join organised ones. If the amount of stacks is the problem it can be limited,if the limit applied to all dots on any class.
Decorate it as you like but a dot ticking 1.6k is not something normal. Having 4 of them on you simply serves as an oil effect. There is a design mistake on this ability. The dmg of the tick multiplies with each stack. So while 2x BHA crits for 800 and 3x for 1.6k. This craziness must be fixed.

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b00n
Posts: 192

Re: Broadhead Arrow Suggestion.

Post#50 » Wed Jun 16, 2021 7:47 am

Sever1n wrote: Wed Jun 16, 2021 3:19 am As sw i was in city with rolgroms band, and can say destro melleblob comp have all the chanses to wipe us. Try sw against 7guarded docs comps guys and then tell how broken bha is. U wanna play zerobrain melle armored blob have no treat and kill puny elves? Bfa on forts is stakable yes. On who? On idiots who stand in doorway like min str8. There is a wals u can hide on easy. Staking bfa on tank its like 10 missesand then u have stack. Was playing on sw half of year all players vine how its trash compared to msh. No one take them on regular in cityes even novafays. Exepts rolgrom. And i believe even he realire thatthat comp have zero chances against melle blob la 7sov docs. U want take bha? Fine. No problem really. Just make sw a class that can be competitive with other dps. Try kill sov docs with spam of bfa. They will not even feel it. Have u even tryed make rdps and shoot back? No destro laugh at order that they create ton of rdps and nowcand hold its critical mass with bilions of melke? Maybe its time to SHOOT BACK? 65ft is a death range. If you let staking bfa on u its your problem. Forts have spots where everyone can hide from dot spamers. If u want change of sw so lets talk about class rework owerall not like bfa has to go 100 ft cd has to go. Wp/docs wh/we has to go aswell and u all know it.
1st: The problem of bha is that if hits one squishy person in a blob everyone around will get the dot. And this **** tactic even affects ppl hiding. I had the dot several times through a keep door. If now more sws do this, you will hit the critical mass...

2nd: Doks Doks doks, i have attended several times against that bha stack **** in forts, and it's not a joke. If you have no choppa, u cannot even keep your group dot-cleansed, besides that you didn't heal the party in that time.

Out of Quote - Back to Topic:
I think a cap on how many ppl which get affected could solve the issue AND a fix of applying those things through walls (Talking about a Line of Sight check against everyone which this get's applied)
Destro: Chosen 85+, Zealot 80+, Sorceress 80+, Dok 80+, BG 80+, Magus 80+, Choppa 80+, WitchElf 80+
Order: SM 64, Warrior Priest 47, AM, BrightWizard, ShadowWarrior, Kotbs

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